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Susan Lyon on BoldBrush Live!

Video Replay of Live Webinar which "aired" on December 5th, 2024

Susan Lyon was our latest guests on our BoldBrush Live! program. As a paid subscriber, we are happy to provide not only the video replay but the full transcript of the insightful session with Susan below. Please keep in mind the transcripts are generated by AI so there may be some typos.

Creatively,

Clint Watson
BoldBrush Founder & Creativity Fanatic

PS - This email may be too long for some email programs. We suggest you watch/read it on the web by clicking the button below.

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Olya Konell 00:00

So I'm going to go ahead and get us started with some announcements. And first of all, welcome to BoldBrush life, which is a free artist webinar, just a chance for us to get together and learn from each other. And today we have a very exciting guest, and I just love her energy already, Susan Lyon, and I'll introduce her on here in just a moment. And we have Angela Augusto, who is our Artist Relations Director, and something that we like to do, just because people always ask, I get this question a lot, is, who's BoldBrush, and what do they do? I'll just run through this. BoldBrush is, we're a company. Our goal is to inspire artists, to inspire the world, and the way we do that is we offer artists free and paid resources. So this webinar, we do this every month. We're going to break for December, January. We'll pick up again at the end of January next year. We have a free podcast, we have a free newsletter. We offer just a lot of free resources on our site, boldbrush.com that you could learn about the just be inspired with for creativity, because creating good art is step one. You know to be inspired. And then you know, once you've created the work, you've met other like minded artists, we want to provide you with the tools to share your art with the world through your own website. And we do that with Faso websites, which is the system that Clint built from the ground up, and you could learn more by visiting faso.com or artful Squarespace by Faso. So we've partnered to offer Squarespace sites at a very discounted rate. Now, the one thing I will mention here, and I don't know how much time. I'll have to go into detail. But both of these were offering a huge sale right now. So this is a holiday promo. You can get a, you know, a Faso site, a gold one. What was the total on that? Angela and 228,

Angela Agosto 01:55

the gold one at the silver prize, yeah. So you can get a special probably next week on that,

Olya Konell 02:00

yeah, so, and there's information about that in your emails. And then, if you, maybe you're you teach workshops, or, like Susan, she has both, she's a Faso and and a Squarespace site connected. You can do a Squarespace site. And Squarespace right now for the advanced plan is like $1,600 a year with Faso. You can get it for two years for 600 bucks, and that's their best plan. You get access to the BoldBrush circle of marketing, which is where we have all of our tools and resources for our customers to everything from an art marketing calendar to ask for a critique, a place to, you know, just ask a question. Look for resources, watch these replays, all of that good stuff. And I know Angela is going to drop some links in the chat. And after this, if you just have a question, you can respond to any of the webinar emails, and I will help get you to somebody who can explain a little bit more. And you can do a free trial with both of those, as long as you can activate before the end of the year, you can get that promo pricing. So sorry about the spiel. I wanted to get it out before we got into all of the fun. We don't do this very often, so we just like to get that out there. All right, and I'm going to go ahead and bring our featured guest on so let's go ahead and spotlight here. Susan, welcome good. So I'm sure most of you know who Susan is and you are. Maybe you've taken one of her workshops, and maybe you have, maybe you're one of her Patreon members, or you watch her on YouTube or Instagram. You do a lot and and so I want to just kind of give you the microphone and have you tell us a little bit about yourself.

Susan Lyon 03:53

Wow. Okay, yeah,

Olya Konell 03:55

just tell us, you know what, just enough to summarize who you are, what, what, what you do. And then we'll kind of jump into all of that. Okay,

Susan Lyon 04:04

um, well, I am, I mean, a fine artist. I also teach art. Um, I'm married to artist Scott Burdick. It's funny, how many people would not know that we're married. It's, you know, I always, always get a kick out of that, because we both have different last names and stuff. So So Scott Burdick, if you go to my website, Susan lyon.com, Scott and I share it, which is probably pretty rare for you guys, but we're like, why not just share it? Because we're like, so tied together. So you can see my work and Scott's work on that website. And we grew up like Chicago, went to art school in Chicago, moved to North Carolina, got in the late 90s, just because, and this is something that we'll probably talk about, is like, Yeah, can you make a living at art? And it, I mean, and when we lived in Chicago, I mean, we lived month to month. I mean, it was like, you had to make enough money to pay your rent. And we. Couldn't travel, and we never went out to eat. And we really our dream was to be able to go on trips. So all of a sudden, people always ask me, why did you choose North Carolina? And I like, I don't really have a reason. It was some kind of inspiration download. I had been listening to the radio or NPR one day, and I remember hearing some program about, oh, one of the best places to retire is North Carolina. Scott, I never been to North Carolina, so we're like, oh, okay, gosh, you know. And I had this vision of, like, getting a house with, like, you know, be able to build a studio on it, instead of our apartment, where, you know, one had the dining room and one had the living room, and we had to eat in bed and all that stuff. So we, you know, moved down to North Carolina to save money and and we knew that then we could actually not have to put money towards rent. We could put money towards a house, and we could do trips, and because that was our passion. And so we moved down here, and because our business, we never made a living, really, where we lived, like, even in Chicago, it was too hard to make a living at, like, a gallery in Chicago. Um, we always had to send paintings in other states. And so it didn't matter where we lived. And I think that's probably one of the one things that I say to people, are you willing to move? Which is a tricky one. It's a very sensitive subject. When someone says, How do you make a you know, I just got an email, like, literally yesterday, a young artist who wanted to have get advice. And, you know, I was trying to, you know, say the things about, don't get in debt. I was trying to say the things about, you know, the basic stuff, I guess, you know, paint, what you're passionate, and, and, but I also said one of the main things is just don't have high overhead. It that's going to kill your kill your business. It's going to kill you if you have to worry about paying your rent, if you, if like, you have to take jobs that you hate, if you have to, like, go get a part time job. I mean, there's all these things that are going to stop your momentum of being a fine artist, if you have to worry so much about money, and if you're willing to move. And sometimes when I say things like that to people, you know, you number one thing they'll say is, well, I can't move because my my family's here. And then this the discussion ends, and I go, I mean, I get it. I get it. My family lives in Chicago. It's but I knew that I could not be a fine artist and paint what I wanted to paint if I still lived in Chicago, I just wouldn't be able to and, I mean, you could probably become a full time teacher, but then you wouldn't be able to be someone who actually painted what you wanted to paint, and not just, you know, maybe being told what you should paint, or like paint what you think will sell. And that was probably one of the biggest things, Scott and I both have this personality that, you know, we always think we could make more money. We make enough money. You know, we make enough money. We know we could make more money if we did workshops and full time classes, if we painted, you know, as artists, we all had those paintings that were very popular. We all call had them, no matter what subject matter it is that one painting where, you know, more than one person wanted it, and then even one person might come up to you and say, Oh, would you do something like that for me? And you go, Okay, wow, I get it like people are liking this subject, or people are liking this the way I did it, and then I could do it 20 times. But would it fulfill me? And that's it just wouldn't fulfill us. We just would not be able to do it. So we knew that we had to live in a place that we just didn't have overhead. And so we live in North Carolina. We live it kind of in a rural area, but we live close enough to a small city, so that, you know, we could get models, you know, restaurants, all that type of stuff, and paint with friends. But we also know that we can, you know, if we don't sell a painting for six months, we'll be fine. So that's the number one thing, is that, do you have a cushion? Like, don't, like, that's it you have. You know, it's all about being incredibly frugal. And can you be frugal? So here I am. I'm lecturing. I'm going on and on, and I I don't even know if I'm answering this stuff.

Olya Konell 09:34

I'm like, Oh, this I love, actually, these are real topics, real problems that we have as as artists, as we you know, whether we like it or not, then, you know, we love to paint. We are these creative beings all this, but at the end of the day, we have to pay our bills. We need shelter, we need food. Yeah, you know, how are we going to make that happen to sustain ourselves? And it's just a reality that we're faced with, which oftentimes is what squash is. Dreams and what stunts talent is, because people don't know how to get around that. And I, and a lot of the questions I have on my list is specifically, you know, geared towards that. And I definitely want to dive even deeper into it. One of the things, and I want to tackle this early on, just in case we go over by a few minutes, or somebody has to leave early, you do a lot of different things, and you've mentioned a few. So you offer and I'll let me pull it up on my screen so people can see. So if you go to Susan's website, whoops, here we go. So Susan and Susan lyon.com and then we've shared the link. You have a Patreon. So if you're an artist on a budget and you want to learn how to paint better, you want some, you do a lot of demos, and you actually have some handy that you've done, like laying around. We were just talking about this,

Susan Lyon 10:57

yeah, you were saying because I was telling that I have two studios. So anybody that has followed me or watched any of the videos or YouTube is you might have, this might be a new studio for you. This is where my home is. And so I was like, so some of the demos, oh, you're trying to get glare. So this was a demo I did in Yorkshire, so I didn't actually film it, but this was for a workshop. And, oh, this is it. This is one I filmed.

Olya Konell 11:24

Do you sell those two, maybe collectors, to smaller pieces? This one is

Susan Lyon 11:29

actually being sold to the model models mother. And this one is, this was a demo that I filmed. So Scott and I, you know, like a lot of people, during when all of a sudden, 2020 when everything happened, we had had tons of shows and trips, everything stopped, just like everybody. And I'm the type of person, probably one of the, I'm going to say, probably one of my best traits is I don't embarrass easily. So I, you know, when everything stopped, I had never even saw, heard about really Patreon. I think I had heard once somebody named Patreon. What is that? And I just, well, I'm just going to start one with my phone. You know, I didn't know anything about editing. I knew nothing. And anyone that watches my earlier videos, I try to laugh at myself. I love it. I love it. I don't, I don't edit out the bloopers. So sometimes I make that's the best, yeah. So anyways, I try not to to, like, glossify my life, right? And so I really thought my, my biggest dream is if, instead of charging a lot of money, because some people for subscriptions, can charge 30, maybe even 50, $60 a month sometimes. And I was like, No, I want people in other countries. I want to charge I want to get $5 for $5 a month. We'll give you information. We will give you you can we'll meet over live streams, like once a month you can ask us questions. I wanted to be able to do that because I, you know, I thought, why do you know information should be, yeah, in a way. I mean, it shouldn't be hoarded by people who just go to expense schools. So if anything, I thought might if I could be known for somebody who says, Wow, the you know, I can get so much information for $5 a month, and I could have like, and I could, hopefully, you know, I could get hundreds of people for $5 a month. I would rather have that than, you know, 50 people for a lot more. So that's

Olya Konell 13:38

and I love that I heard this quote, The secret to success is to serve the find a way to serve the most people. And not only that, you also have the your YouTube, which I think we shared the link, but we'll share again, where you a lot of times, you'll create record a demo from start to finish, and you'll just share it there, along with your fun artist diaries that I love, which is honestly so I'm I did not go to art school. I do art more for fun, and I occasionally take on commissions here and there. And what got me into painting was watching other artists type of diaries and vlogs and things on YouTube early, early on, like many years ago. And so by you putting these out, you're inspiring some young person, somebody who's never even thought about picking up a paintbrush to maybe try, which I love that

Angela Agosto 14:25

I just wanted to add that I love that you did that during the time when everybody was stuck at home and struggling and probably were yearning for that connection and such a low price, just to kind of get people to be creative, because we all know that that's good for the soul, and so I just love that you did that that was, Oh,

Susan Lyon 14:42

thank you. Yeah, that

Olya Konell 14:44

is amazing. And that's part of why I wanted to highlight it is, is going back to how to make money. One of the things that you've always says, you've always said in like, prior conversations, is, like, you know, having it's coming up with passive income. Options, whether it be prints of your best work, or having something super affordable, you know, and what I love about the Patreon price points that you've set, You're so sensitive to be to being an artist that didn't have a lot of money, that you want to make sure that those artists or anyone, anywhere, can get the information or education that they need without having to, you know, choose between eating lunch and you know what I mean? Yeah, so I need that.

Susan Lyon 15:29

Thank you. It's well, because I think back to when I was starting off. It was in the early 90s, and there was no Internet, and the only way that you could see art was through art magazines. So every month you would just wait to go to like, you know, the the arts, the book store, and just, you know, flip through them and hoard these, you know, magazines and cut out pictures and or, you know, if you had the money, you could go to a museum. But in general, you were limited to that. And you were limited to the idea that somehow you would hope a magazine would do an article on you, or, you know, that would be like the ultimate that somehow you would be spotlighted, or somehow you would even get to be in a gallery. Whereas nowadays, you know, through our own websites, through social media, we do have ultimate control. You know, we have more power than galleries have now. And so that's something that you know, when people ask us, like, how do you make a living, or how do you get in galleries, it's a different time. It really is. It's, I say, try and be if you can be your own boss, and because you can't put all your eggs in one basket. You can't just hope that galleries are going to sell your work. Galleries are not our number one income anymore, you know, we can. We would not be able to stay afloat if it was only galleries. We have to hustle, you know. We have to figure out, like, we'll test a gallery in one city and, you know, do they sell enough? Or do we feel like, you know, galleries nowadays too, you realize, like, the biggest ones have like, 200 artists, like they literally have that many artists in their roster. So are you going to be hung? Are you going to be put in the bath? Are they only going to be hanging one of your pieces instead of the five that you sent them? So these are all the things that you have to think about, because it doesn't guarantee sales just by being in a gallery, because they're gonna put their biggest sellers. And if you start off at like prices at like anywhere from like 500 to $2,000 you know, do they make enough money off of you to promote you? You know? Whereas in the olden days, like galleries used to like have shows once a year, and they used to promise you ads, and they used to promise you things, and you would save up paintings, and it was win, win. Whereas nowadays, you know, it's like, galleries are much more particular about who they want in, and they're also, you know, they really want to do 5050, and they're always trying to get artists to, like, sign these contracts. And, I mean, I hate to say it, but I would not recommend that like Do not sign these contracts that say you have 5050, and then you have, you know, do you have to pay for shipping, there and back, all of this stuff that artists feel like, Oh, well, I have to sign these things. I have to do this. And you really don't. You really don't, if you are willing, you know, and that's not every artist, you know, I'm not, I'm not great. In fact, we were talking before we even went live. Is that, you know, I make tons of mistakes. I just joking Angela that I'm constantly emailing her saying, you know, I don't know what I'm doing. I screwed up this. Could you help me? Why is this happening, you know? Because I, you know, I, you know, I know it just enough, just enough to get by. Scott's better at it, but he also just wants to paint. We are two people that just want to paint. We do not want to think about Instagram every day. We do not want to think about promotion, even though we have to. We're not great at it, you know, but it's like, are you willing to maybe get a friend or somebody who is an Instagram to help you out? Like, I do have a friend that I have started to ask, like, once a month, just to say, Hey, could you come to my studio and could you help me look at what I'm doing, and as an outsider, tell me like, is it clear? Do you understand? Are the links easy to read my descriptions? Are, you know, because as artists, sometimes we just maybe do a little bit too quick, or we don't clarify enough. Is because we want new people. We want people who are maybe getting into art for the first time, and we want them to understand how we're describing things. So that would be something good for people to do is get an outsider to read everything look at it as new, or do they have questions? But there are a lot of people out there nowadays who will could help you, even with graphics and all that stuff that. I really do need help. And I was even saying to them that I need to get better at my newsletters, you know. I mean, you know, how do you describe them? How do you do the graphics to grab people? Because, you know, I'm just concentrating on how to actually draw a face, you know, I don't really know. You know, we all have our specialties, you

Olya Konell 20:18

know, yes, yeah, when I what I love, what you're sharing right now, and I want to highlight what you just said. You admit, and I admit we are all. We all can admit there's things that we do that we're not the best at, but the fact that you are doing it Done is better than perfect. The fact that you're actually doing it, you're, you know, let's just say you're going to if you're something that stresses over the the perfection of your post, or the perfection of your newsletter, the perfection of your blog, blog, whatever it is that you are attempting to do, if you stress over the perfection, it will get you nowhere. And zero is not good. Versus Hey, 50 people saw it and they loved it, and now they're fans of your work. They're fans of your teaching. Then it goes to 100 and it just kind of snowballs. And the other thing I want to highlight this is working so well and so many artists are so afraid that they have to be like a saint on camera, no, be yourself. Like, why people love when you walk into a thrift store and you see a painting like, yeah, it could be pretty. It might more of a decoration, but until you know who painted it, and you know their personality, and you get to actually know them, that painting starts building in value, you know, only after you know who the artist is. So like as artists, it's okay to be a little silly, to be a little quirky, to have your bloopers. You know, in a perfect obviously tasteful. Everything's tasteful, but

Susan Lyon 21:44

I get it. I ask you so much. I wish that's like deep seated in people, this idea of being scared of judgment. Yeah, it is. It's something that I talk with people about, you know, about perfectionism, that everything has to be so perfect. And I guess to me, like I got rid of that. I never had it. I mean, I know that I that's one of my traits. I've never was a perfectionist, almost to a fault. I mean, probably try to work for you. Well, no. I mean, you know, everybody's at it a little bit differently, like for me, sometimes people say, could you give us a description for a painting? Anything, right? They'll say, and I'm like, oh, okay, you know. And I'll just type something out, and it could be completely a run on sentence or whatever. And I'm like, here, I'll tell people, please, just edit it. And I'll ask Scott, and I'll say, Scott, you know, they want us to, like, write a description of something. Scott will take two hours, and I feel guilty. And I go, Scott, come on. Two hours like, you know. But he just is like, wow, but I wanted to make it good. And I go, Well, there's the difference, you know. No,

Angela Agosto 22:51

were you ever earful? Just wanted to say of you know how you started filming yourself, and were you ever scared to get in front of the cameras? I know a lot of people tell us they're scared, especially that first time. I know I always give some good advice about go practice in front of a mirror. But was that like that for you as well? Susan,

Susan Lyon 23:07

I've never been scared about getting in front of the camera. I do know that you need to look towards a light. I am literally looking towards a little mini ring light. Now, if I do not have that ring light, because a lot of times I actually wear glasses, but I have guts, you know, when I'm this close to a monitor, I don't need them, but, like, if I'm normally, I wear glasses, but yeah, like, I can look like a monster, you know? So there are times when you, you know, you see yourself on camera, and you're like, What is going on here? But you good lighting is important. But I So, oh, I'm going to show you. So you could you see this? I love that. Yeah. So this is like, you could get these things for like, 20 or 30 bucks on Amazon. So sometimes when I do need to to promote something, right, I will put that on a stand. And it's better for me than trying to to hold myself, you know, because when you're holding your phone, to be honest, it could be slightly too close to your face.

Olya Konell 24:05

Yeah, actually distorts your face too, which exactly like

24:10

shaking if you're not, you know, holding and your hand

Susan Lyon 24:12

gets tired. So if you could get one of those inexpensive, like, poles with a little camera thing, then you could be, like, four or five feet away. You're gonna look better. You just are. So those are things that, yeah, I've noticed, but I was never nervous about being on camera. And I, I don't know if that's just the way we're made or what now and now, like, we are. We were talking about how, like, I just started filming videos with my phone. I mean, if you guys, anyone who's on my Patreon will see the very, very first ones. You know, they maybe it's not the best lighting, maybe this or that, but I will say it in the titles, okay, sorry, guys, you know, sorry that, you know, is a little jiggling right here. Sorry, this just, you know, I'll laugh at it, but you will then see a progression of me getting better. I'll get better over time, and even

Olya Konell 24:59

i. That is the only way to get better. There's actually a mentor of mine. His favorite quote was always, like, your first 50 videos will be your worst 50 videos. Just like your first 50 paintings will be your worst 50 paintings, like or your sketches, anything, you just have to get it out of the way. The quicker you get it out of the way, the easier it becomes. And when it comes to talking on camera for everybody that says, Well, I don't feel comfortable talking on camera if you're willing to try. I have a stutter. I spent years in speech therapy. I was the mouse. I never talked. I mean, to see the fact that I'm on camera right now talking, you host, I could have, if you told me 15 years ago that I would be doing, could, that I could even do this, I would have thought you were nuts and had too much to drink too early in the day. Like, seriously,

Angela Agosto 25:49

I bet people appreciate when you put yourself out there and, like, then you were saying that you kind of like, oh, sorry. But I think that they probably connect because you're being real and you're saying, oh, yeah, I'm not perfect. This is where you're almost making a little light of the situation. And I feel like, okay, you know what I can do this too. Is probably where the inspiration you're giving out to other artists who are favorite

Susan Lyon 26:09

people are people who can laugh at themselves. Yeah, those are the people I want to hang out with. I want to hang out with people that can just like, you know, do something and just go, Oh my God, and just fall over laughing. Yeah, I mean, those are the people that make you feel comfortable, because then there's not this uptightness. But one thing I wanted to mention about that was I had to do a introduction promo for, you know, the Patreon site, they want you to do that, and I get it. But you know, when you try and do that yourself, I could tell I was a little, you know, self conscious, right? And and there is this dynamic between husband and wife, like Scott has tried to come in here, and I could tell I was self conscious. I got a friend, so when I had my friend with a phone, you know, and what it was was I wasn't looking directly, kind of like a 60 Minutes interview. I'm not looking directly at the camera. She's, you know, she had the phone on a tripod, she sat to the left of it, and I looked at her, and she just asked me questions, so then we can edit it down, because I'm looking towards her, which is totally fine, you know, slightly off, just like a normal TV interview. And she would say, Hey, tell me, you know, what do you offer here? And I would say, Well, I offer this, you know, sometimes I'd bloop up or whatever, and she would just ask it again, and I would do it again. And so those could be ways of having a friend do it and not just look. I do think that looking directly sometimes at a camera can be a little bit intimidating, but if you have someone there with you and it's more conversational, it really can come off nicely. Yeah, no,

Olya Konell 27:48

ABS, I can't talk Absolutely. See, there you go. It sneaks out. Occasionally. I had a couple questions in the chat, and also on my list that kind of overlaps, I want to ask it. So, folks are trying to understand, you know, how do you make money from Instagram or YouTube? And I want to kind of guess. My guess is, you use these as your funnels. You meet people on Instagram and YouTube, right? So you're meeting them virtually, and then you you offer them Patreon or a you'll you also do one on one

Susan Lyon 28:27

critiques, yeah, mentoring. So through Patreon, you have just a basic critique level, but then I have a one on one well, I'll meet people like this, you know, over zoom and we talk about their art. But how do you make money off of Instagram? Well, there are ways. I mean, you can get brand things, like, you can get brand endorsements, like, if you're an artist and you absolutely love a certain canvas or a certain paint, and you you are always talking about every time you post, I just love this canvas. It really works well for me. And you tag them, and you have done multiple posts talking about how much you love this canvas, they're going to find out about it. And so now it's up to them if they want to partner with you, but that's a way of doing it. And how you know people who are celebrities do it, you can. I mean, there's all kinds of other ways that you can. You google how to make money off Instagram, by like, reels and all kinds of things. I do not make money off of Instagram. It is definitely about word of mouth. It is definitely about just people seeing what I'm doing, and if they like what I'm doing, they might want to come take a class. They like, you know, like I was just noticing in the chat all these people from Arizona, and I was going to say, Hey, Scott and I are going to be in Tucson in February. So there's a big show at Medicine Man gallery that we're going to fly out to, and if you're just an hour away, please come and meet us right middle of February in medicine man. And so those are the things that Instagram is great about. Like, you know, maybe they're coming to my area. Oh, I'm going to go see them. And then that's the type of. Thing now YouTube, I don't make any money off of, I started it completely out of Scott and I've had a pretty interesting life. Like, I think back to, you know, some of the trips we had and some of the artists we met, and I go, wow, God. I wish that had been recorded, you know, just like, just like all of us, wish we could have been in the room with Sergeant, or wish we could have been in the room with, you know, Georgia, O'Keeffe or somebody, and just been like, how did she sound? What did her studio look like? And I just then became compelled with, I want to do that. I know these. I know some interesting people. I go on trips that could be interesting people who don't have the ability, health wise or money wise to travel to a museum, maybe I'll show them what it looks like, you know, to like, Hey, this is what a sergeant looks like on a wall come, you know. And so that was what I felt compelled about, because a lot of the people I do mentor are people who can't afford to 1000s of dollars to go do a workshop. I get it. There are different tiers, you know? I mean, it's expensive, so I love knowing that it's like, it just, it's like a democratic process platform, you know. So I started YouTube for that. Now, you know,

Olya Konell 31:15

I so I don't make any money off of that. It's pure, but you can potentially and so I actually want to point, point something up. So I have a little plug in that shows you, like, how many views per hour of videos getting. You have videos from five months ago that are still getting, like, three or four and a half of views per hour, 13 views per hour. I don't even look at that. That's yeah, but what I'm saying is, like, that's what, what's cool about YouTube versus Instagram? Instagram Instagram is more of a buffet, and you're always refreshing the information or reposting the same thing periodically, because it gets cold, nobody will see it down the line, you know. So you put something new out. YouTube is great if you are interested in sharing your work or sharing your process, or just your life as an artist, and it will sit there online forever, until you hide it, and it could potentially continue getting views year after year after year. And you

Susan Lyon 32:09

could, there are serious people who dedicate and they could, you could post once or twice a week, and then what happens is people become invested in you, like there are people I follow on YouTube right? And I think, did they? Did they post something today? Like, I want to know their journey. I'm not as consistent, just because I have other things happening. And I thought, I did think, Well, maybe if someday I make a tiny bit of money off of YouTube, well then I could, I could put more time into it. To me, it's just the love of sharing, but you can. There's all different kinds of ways you can make money on YouTube. And I agree with you. I think sharing for free also, I'm sure we've all had this that when somebody gives a lot away for free, as there's something within the human soul that goes I want to support them. So if there's, you know, having a video, if they have a book, if they have something, even what I'm going to buy that book, you know, I want them to keep doing what they're doing, because they're enriching my life. So these are things to think about, yeah,

Angela Agosto 33:15

like, I have a college daughter, she just graduated, but she's also interested in in art, so I and she's like, I don't know if I want to pay. Just just graduated for something that's not in my path, my call. And I said, why not? What if this is something you want to do? So I told her, a lot of our artists have YouTube videos on how to she's like, but I don't have I said, you don't have to pay. You do their stuff, and then if you love it, well then the money you were probably going to you're probably going to save a lot of money, but you're paying for a class. I said, you can pay and subscribe and you learn. So she's been doing that's how I got my mother, too. After, you know, she retired, she was kind of bored, so I told her, go to YouTube. And now she she paints. I love that. Yeah, a few years, and she follows this lady. She goes, I sign up for a class, and I'm like, good for you, yeah, students just, can just get you so many things. And I think for artists, it's important to have some kind of a presence. I love that you say you give all these things away, but I bet that a lot of students probably saw you there and then went. I want to sign up

Olya Konell 34:08

for her workshop with her Patreon. Yeah, yeah. Well, and somebody was asking, how do you find collectors? Well, collectors watch and collectors, you know, you so I want to back up a little bit. So I want to, I forgot to mention this. This is really important. I say this a lot social media and YouTube, Instagram, Facebook, all of these different platforms. Think of them as on television, you have different TV channels, right? So you have these different TV channels, right? But now they're in the pocket of every human being. And then you also have places in real life. You have galleries, restaurants, cafes, museums, like these are all places where we can go and meet people, and we can do it online, and we can do it offline, and it's good to do both, and it's a mix of both. And in the past, it used to be all offline, because that's the only option we had. Now with the internet, we have all of these other opportunities. And. So when you choose to put your art on Instagram or on YouTube or on pay or anywhere, you're basically for free putting your stuff on some TV channel. Like, think about it that way, you're giving people an opportunity to find you you may not make money on that channel, kind of like when an advertiser or a TV show puts a TV show or ad out. They only make money when people see the ad. Decide they want to go support them, and then they do it. So they could go watch your YouTube video, but then they could sign up for a Patreon a collector could stumble across one of your artist diaries and fall in love with your personality and work and want to purchase a painting that they happen to spot in the background. You know, YouTube is free. It is exactly and same thing with Instagram. It's like a, it's a, you switch the channel. You go to Instagram, there's an, it's a different place, different maybe people, you know, different demographics.

Susan Lyon 35:53

People ask about, how do you find collectors? I'm gonna say 80% or more, 80, 85% of our collectors are artists. You know, Wow, I love that. So, I mean, if you think about it, like people who adore art, look at art, you know, are the ones who take our workshops. Are the ones who, you know, like, join us or subscribe to us. Those are people because they're fascinated by art. They want to collectors and artists are in a collaboration. There's a relationship there. You know, collectors want to have an idea that they are actually making a difference. So they want reasons to support people. They want to like, be a part of your journey. So whenever artists I you know, whenever I talk to people and they are shy about putting their work up, they want have perfectionism or I also think that probably one of the number one things that is going to create a following is when someone can follow, can see you at one level, and you and you grow.

Angela Agosto 37:01

It's a story. It's a because

Susan Lyon 37:03

they see you get better or become more evolved, or become more who you are. They are like, I'm inspired, and it's inspiring. And I'm gonna, like, I'm gonna support them. I'm gonna like, donate, you know, I'm gonna like, buy something from them, or subscribe to them. Or it's like, we all have it, it's, it's just, you just need to share who you are and not like I said before. I just, I can't get embarrassed, you know, paintings too, like that. You know, I tried really hard on, and this is something I wanted to also say, is that, I mean, I I'm not exaggerating, eight out of 10 things that I work on probably don't get posted. They are exercises. They are they can be like demo things, or they can be something that I'm starting. And along the way, I find that, okay, it just wasn't working. Okay, try something new. Problem solve, start it again, and what happens is, I see people feel that when they start something, it has to turn into a product that can then make them money. But you can't think that way. It's not a good way to think. If you think everything you start is going to be at the end, you have a frame on it, it's like, we all have to, like, go, okay. You know, a lot of 80% of what I do stays in my studio or gets painted over. Anyone who watches my YouTube diaries, I will literally show them. Okay, I just painted over five canvases today. Oh, found eight more. Found eight more canvases. I'm, you know, painting over today. So it's just, I want the reality to be out there. You know, in fact, I was going to interview Scott because I, you know, I mentor people, and someone emailed me a couple days ago about, you know, we all have these things that like, why isn't it turning out right? You know, why is everything struggle? Will it ever get better? They always say, will it feel better later on? And I say, well, like anything the level, your level rises, but we always are striving for more excellence. So there's always going to be this idea that you can get better, and there's going to be good days and bad days. And Scott just a few days ago, I mean, I still marvel at how sensitive he can be, because he we all have issues with something, and mine is I'm very open about the fact that I can I feel like I can be value blind, like I have troubles, and that's why, when I teach, I'm always telling people to be more separate. You know, just keep your lights and your darks separate as long as possible, so that you can judge it better, whereas other people might teach it differently. And Scott's issue is that no matter what, no matter how hard he tries, every now and then, he'll get the alignment off, and he can't see it, you know? And I, I, he showed me a drawing that he had just finished for this show in Tucson, and he had just finished it. And I looked at it, I was like, I. Like, I was like, Scott, oh, you know. And I want to be sensitive, but I also have to tell him, like, I'm like, Scott, like, like, you see that this one is higher than the other? And he's like, no, no, I used a t square. I really tried to make sure. And I go, let's turn it upside down. And once he turned it upside down in his computer, he saw it, and he felt so deflated, he literally crushed down and said, I just want to give up. I want to give up and, you know, and I it's like, wow. People need to know this. People need to know that someone that they think does everything, even me, like I put him up on a pedestal. He is technically excellent. The thing about him is he's always just trying to be more exciting, more this, more that, that, you know, it's this energy of just always maybe thinking something isn't good enough, and I'm always just trying to get better. And he was so deflated. I mean, he went back, he fixed it, but it's like, yeah, we go through it. You could be painting for 30 years, but it's, it's this idea that there's not a backup plan, so you're in for the long haul

Olya Konell 41:07

well. And also going back to that question that the person asks you, will it ever get better? Will it ever get easier? It literally, this is like such a beautiful illustration of if you're in it for the destination, you're in it for the wrong reason. If you're in it for the journey of continually growing and evolving and continually getting better, you're in it for the you're going to enjoy your ride more, even with the good and the bad days. You know, you'll always feel continual accomplishments, continual goals, continual accomplishments,

Angela Agosto 41:38

the moments and all those good you know, you fix it. It's like, okay,

Olya Konell 41:42

I hear somebody saying, it's always helpful to hear that even the master struggle. Thank you. Susan, so, yes, yeah,

Susan Lyon 41:47

I was gonna, like interview him, because he likes to, he's honest about things and and I that, you know, I've known some famous artists that don't want to show that, and it breaks my heart in a way, because you realize, oh, wow, they can't show that. Like, I like, like, that's sad to me like you, because you wonder, like, the most being vulnerable or transparent I was about something will make you

Olya Konell 42:14

more popular, more human, more human. Like,

Susan Lyon 42:18

you know, and if you hide it, then there's always going to be a wall between you and the public. People will just always think that everything you do like maybe you're a genius, and so they'll never live up to it. But if you can realize that, yeah, they might have genius in them, but they have, you know, down days, they don't feel well, they're not inspired. There's all these things as being an artist that is never linear. It is some days you're inspired, some days you're not. I personally think that I know that painting with friends, painting in a group, just helps me so much. If I paint from photos too much I get stale. You know, I love painting from life, but then I also know that painting from life, my work can look can't get to that finish that I personally want sometimes. So I have to balance. I have to be alone, but I have to be with people. So, you know it's sometimes people will say, well, there's not an art group near me. And I'm like, well, then maybe you have to be the leader. I had to be the leader in my town. I had to start it, you know. And you have that, like, you have to, like, bite the bullet. You have to hire the model. Or sometimes, if money is tight, you get three or four or five friends, and you then say, okay, we're each going to post for each other for one hour or 45 minutes. So then you don't have to pay any money, but then you do your part with posing. And that could be where you start, but great, it's you have to. I think there's something about group energy. I think that there's this idea that, you know, if you see somebody do something and you like it, it taps into that idea of like, Oh, I like what they're doing. I, you know, I want to do that. Or you get inspired.

Olya Konell 44:06

Yes, there. There's also an a really So Harvard scientist did a lot of experiments about group activities, and she's considered the scientific mother of mindfulness. So when people are in the same room, concentrating on the same thing, meditating, yeah, there is, yeah. There is a measurable, there is something that is actually physically measurable, not woo woo, but a measurable energy, not in a woo, woo way, but something that can actually machine, yeah, I'm not gonna,

44:36

I'm not gonna let you say that. Yeah. Okay.

Susan Lyon 44:42

Yeah. Meditation, quietness. Sometimes, you know, I felt that for years, I struggled with understanding my intuition, I struggled with finding the flow. I do think that social media can desensitize us to who we are and. So, you know, I would get very, very down when I would think, how am I unique? Why I can't I seem to see what other artists are doing. I maybe I'll even try the materials they're using. Maybe I'll try a style that they're using and it's not working for me. So I feel completely a loser. And I used to think, well, they're in the flow. How do they know how to get to the flow? And I'm totally honest, the way to find your flow is silence. It is the only way that you will ever know what your thoughts are. Completely different from other people's thoughts are, is if you literally sit quiet and listen and listen, and it's not going to come overnight. It's not going to be the first time you do it. It could feel incredibly uncomfortable, but it's like, you can you hit rock bottom to where you go. Well, it's not working for me. It's this. Is not this. What I am doing is not working for me. I have to change. So I'm going willing, just like if people give up sugar or smoking or whatever, I am willing to sit in silence each day. Sometimes you could put on, you know, meditation music, but really it's the idea that you have to hear your own thoughts that are not other people's thoughts.

Olya Konell 46:18

Yeah. Well, yeah, yeah, too much noise. There's way I agree with you. We do get desensitized. There's a lot of noise and and that isn't Yeah, that there's

Angela Agosto 46:29

a break from social media, because, like you said, Sometimes all they're posting is the good stuff, yeah. And you think they didn't mess up, they don't mess up, but when you post it, you do mess up. But then here's the finished product. It gives other people hope. And like you said, probably sitting there and thinking quietly by yourself, listening is going to help you decide what you want to do next. Or inspiration will come. Yeah, it will.

Susan Lyon 46:53

It's a shocking thing that you will get a thought, you'll get a notion. There'll be something that comes to you that you wouldn't have heard otherwise. So I just know that that was very important for me, because I used to talk with friends all the time, art friends, like, like, I don't know how to tap into my intuition. I don't know how do I do it like I feel like I want to, but I don't know how. And, you know, of course, the answer was in front of me, but it's like anything you just, you know, it's little by little, and then witnessing how you know your body or your mind doesn't want to do it, and then that's fine. Like, why doesn't my body or mind want me to sit with myself? Yeah? Silence. That's something to understand, you know. So, yeah, yeah,

Angela Agosto 47:39

I feel like I'm always going in. I've been trying to meditate for years, but I know that I have a problem just sitting still doing nothing. I always feel there's something waiting for me, but it's important. So I now do that, whether I'm reading something spiritual or and so I'm like, okay, maybe I'm just going to sit here so I'm getting there, and I feel like it's so important, because then I'm ready to listen to do. And now I can think, was that really that important? And we live in such a noisy world right now with social media at your fingertips. I know it mentioned earlier Olia that, you know, you literally have your phone and you have access to everything the world here, sometimes you need to put it away.

Olya Konell 48:16

It's interesting. It is, is definitely that balance and, you know, and then I know we talked about social media, we, you know, a little bit, but I also kind of want to bring it back, because you've mentioned some things. So I like to refer to something as an invisible marketing so, and I mentioned this before, we believe that artists marketing is everything that we do, online and offline, especially all of life's activities, so like meeting with other artists in your local group that you organized, you know, or going traveling, you know, you do a lot of traveling. So all of that, all of life's activities, give us an opportunity to share that we are an artist and then share our work. What I want to know is, what are some of the invisible, non social media things that you do that have helped you move the needle throughout the more recent years, like over the last five to 10 years. Well,

Susan Lyon 49:08

I mean, you know, it's funny, you sent me questions, and I was like, taking notes, and I'm trying to what would be an invisible

Olya Konell 49:16

thing, not a social media thing, you know? Yeah.

Susan Lyon 49:22

Gosh, you know it's, it's difficult to, I mean, I guess it's hard to know what comes up right now. I mean, the things that some from some of the questions that you asked me, I'll just kind of, I'm just going to say what some of the, you know, it's like, how do you engage? I'm going to just, I'm sorry, I know. I'm wondering if one of these answers will help you with that question, because, you know, it's like, how do you like spread out, but then also, right? What is not social media. So finding collectors like number one is, I think that being professional with keeping a list of collectors emails. Or addresses and engaging in them with them at least once a year. So, you know, there's nothing more important than a collector who gets a personal letter from someone we love that did their art and you saying, Thank you.

Olya Konell 50:13

I love that you

Susan Lyon 50:14

for supporting me. I remember you. You know I, you are, you know I thank you for helping me keep doing what I want to do. Other things that are strategies would be, you know, sometimes with art or something is like offering like a bundle, offering things like that for people you know, sometimes like, if somebody helps you out with subscribing to something, you can give them a small gift, or, you know, or a personal like, one on one. Like, if you know, depending on how much somebody supports you, there's always something that you can offer people. There's always, you know, just giving back to people who support you is really important. Offering free like, I offer free trials. You know, I was so happy when Patreon did that, because I always wanted to give free trials, but they just didn't have it in their platform yet. So now I can offer a free trial. Say, Hey, do you like me? Check it out. Binge, binge, everything we have, and then cancel. I'm totally fine with it, you know. But if you like what we have, well then maybe you'll, you know, help us out. One thing that I have noticed, that I think is so great, is I have recently, in the past year, decided to be much more proactive about entering every online show or competition that I can that I don't have to send the piece to. Oh, so anybody out there, there are two different there are two different websites that I recommend. Okay, so submit, show, submit.com, and jury arts services.com so these two sites are totally free, and what they are are you enter your information, they'll ask you, what are you interested in? Do you like landscape? Do you like pastel? Do you like figurative? You know, what do you want to be notified about? So I'm, I'm signed up with both, and each week, I get emails saying, hey, don't forget, you said you were interested in this particular thing. So then I could go on and I'll be like, Oh, it's an online show or competition that I don't have to send the piece to. But, you know, some some of them want you to become members, but there's so many out there that you don't even have to be a member. So those are the ones that I focus on.

Olya Konell 52:36

What was the second site I have show submit, what was the other one? Next one

Susan Lyon 52:40

is juried art services,

Olya Konell 52:43

juried art. I'm going to share these with the church, yeah, and

Susan Lyon 52:47

and so I have just entered online things every single month, and I've actually made money off of these things, because I can enter the same piece in multiple different shows, because I don't have to send them to them. There's just so many things like that that you could do. It just takes a little bit more time. It just takes, you know, just an hour out of your day to look these things up, put them on your calendar, remind yourself, get good images, all that thing. But then it, you know, takes me five minutes to enter another thing. Yeah, so that's just something I I recommend now, whenever you share images on Instagram or your website or anywhere, please give a paragraph of at least a backstory. Tell us like where you painted it, tell us the materials that you used. Tell us your emotional state when you did it, you know, were you cold? Were you tired? Were you frustrated? Were you happy? These simple little paragraph is going to be more engaging than just telling us the title size, you know, so it's just something that I recommend, is just a little bit of backstory, and you'll actually get more engagement. I think people will go, oh, wow, thanks for telling us that all those type of things. Yeah, don't be connected. Yeah, being consistent. I feel that, you know, like in like in art, you know, it's like coming to the studio every day. I don't have a backup plan. I know that this is my job. One thing that I do tell people is it's like, I remember the very first time I ever went to Richard Schmidt's house. Now, Richard Schmidt was, you know, me and Scott was, like, the guy we put up on the, you know, this pedestal, this like, guy, like, whoa. You know, he was the epitome what everyone wanted. So when I met him in Chicago when I was 19 years old, it was like, boy, this is a famous artist who literally makes a living at painting and is changing the way we see the world. Like there's literally before him and after him. And when the first time I went to his house, unapologetic, you walk into his Victorian house, you there's. Cute little living room, but then it opens onto a dining room, and that was his studio. Wow, he didn't hide it in the basement. He didn't hide a studio in the garage. He didn't so what I find is is that people compartmentalize. Just wear being an artist on your sleeve, like you walked into his house and every aspect was his paintings everywhere, and he could had plopped down an artist on a chair and done a painting of her, because his life was art. And so that's something I want you to ask yourself, are you one person to certain people and another person to other people, or are you completely just artist all the time? And that's that is who I am. Like, I mean, I talk art. I if I travel, it's for art. If people come to our house, you know, there's art everywhere, like it's, it's not like I present this, this, you know, Picture Perfect Living room where it's, you know, so pristine. You can't get dirty. No, it's like, there's paintings, there's art stuff, there's everywhere. So I just remember him learning that from him, and I was so appreciative that I knew that I was never going to be that person that hid my art a way, way, way, in some place that people never saw, and then sometimes look at me. I just volunteer information. So, no, no, this

Olya Konell 56:17

is perfect, because I'm actually taking, like, the notes you've shared. I mean, this is valuable so many people.

Susan Lyon 56:25

So I mean, I talked about finding art groups. Now that's tricky, because you can find art groups and maybe those art groups you don't click with, but I 100% would bet money that you would find at least one person out of that art group. Then, then you can create your own secondary art group. How do you get better? Because what happens is, as artists, especially when I teach workshops, I do like to teach block ins. A lot I really like to teach the beginning approach, because, you know, it's like, it's just the most important thing. Because I feel that in workshops, if an artist is working on one piece for five days straight, they don't have that ability to, kind of, to like, start again, to like, make something fresh, to like, it's like, I feel like it's, it's piano scales, right? You're just constantly doing something over and over and over again, because we need good eye hand coordination. We're trying to, like, get that cellular memory so that when you're starting something again, it's like, it's not as difficult. Timed exercises is what I always recommend. And I know that when my paintings, we all do it like, my paintings will get stale, like I'll start to realize that I'm nitpicking. I go, okay, all right, for a few days I'm gonna do timed exercises, and they can be anywhere from like a half hour to an hour where I'm just blocking in because we need the ability to paint with more paint, bigger strokes, bigger shapes. Because the moment we get down to tiny shapes, that's when things get a little bit, you know, too, yeah, too detailed. So it's the idea that when you start to feel that things are not going the way you want, is like, okay, just take a day or two and just do timed exercises. It's, you know, are you willing to do it? That's the number one thing. But I love it. I find it okay. I don't know if we talked about this or not. I probably did, but I'm just bringing up on it. No, no, no, that this live below your means, please. I mentioned talking moving to North Carolina, but just don't, you know what? Don't live off of credit, just if you can pay in cash. I sometimes I think, you know, Scott and I came from completely different families that dealt with money differently, but yet we both learned from both those two extremes. Hey, buy things with what you have do. Never just buy things to extend your you know, if you have to pay off credit card, you will never catch up. So please just live within your live below your means and always pay things off. What else I'm like? I'm just trying to think, did I answer your question about invisible stuff? Oh

Olya Konell 59:17

yeah, no. Actually, what you shared is so perfect, that's exactly what I wanted to hear. I was I didn't want to assume that that's what you did, because some artists might not, but I it's I love hearing things like this, because it helps us know that this is what you're doing and it's working for you and you're enjoying it. And here's the pros, because you don't have to send your art in. We actually also shared our bold brush Contest, which is also free for members. And, you know, new people can get their first one free, but that is, like, there that's a no brainer, like, pick one a month to enter. Like, I love it more. And we don't even know about those two sites. So this will be useful for everybody.

Angela Agosto 59:56

Submit your bank shipping fee to pay an. Tree fee. That's great. Oh,

Olya Konell 1:00:01

huge. What about So, I know several people have asked about this, and you do such a beautiful job about talking about pricing, helping price, you pricing your work to sell. What are some like real life? You know, tangible tips that artists can can take. I know it's, it's not a one size fits all answer, but if somebody's stuck, and they're newer, maybe they're trying to, they have a bunch of paintings, they need to sell them. Well,

Susan Lyon 1:00:30

I mean, it's commerce. It really is. The thing that I notice most is that people see how other people are pricing, and then they price the same and, like, we have, like, a local in Winston, Salem, there's a local Art Association. I'm going to be completely honest, I don't think any of them are listening, you know, they, they're probably all of a certain age. They're primarily women, and, you know, they have art shows, and they do things right? And I remember talking to an artist who had just, you know, left her job and she really wanted to be an artist, and she we were talking, and I said, Well, okay, so you see how they're pricing their stuff. Did any of them sell? Do any of them need money? These are all the things. What happens is we tend to price ourselves because we see how other people price, and we go, oh, well, I don't want to look bad. I don't want to be lower than them. You know, they're pricing their something at $1,200 so I should price my thing at 1200 or maybe you know is that, you know mine's bigger than theirs. I should price it at least to 1200 and I'm like, Well, no, you know, you build up to that, right? You have, you know, that's because that's the thing is that, to be completely honest, you price at what it will sell. Now, of course, as artists, we hope, we just pray, that we get our materials back, that we get minimum wage for the time we put in it, but you might not. And so what happens is, you, you know, you just, if like, if you're pricing your work at $1,200 and it is not selling, it's because $1,200 is a lot of money. And believe me, would I pay $1,200 for a piece of art, maybe for an artist that I've never heard of, or this or that? No, I mean, I just wouldn't. So you have to think about, first of all, think about number one question, would you buy your own work? Take yourself out of the equation. If you saw your work, would you literally pay good money for it that you might actually go on a vacation instead? Would you pay for that and put that on your wall. And I had to, like, look at my own work too. I have, like, would I, you know? And so those are questions that are really deep, and so, you know. And I don't even look about what other people are always telling me my prices are too low, and I just want to stick my tongue out at them, because I go, but if my prices are too low, buy it. You know, I don't want to hear it. I don't want to hear it because I need to keep going. I need to, like, I don't want to be my biggest art collector. I want my my more work to to move so it's, it's commerce do. If you put a piece and you have more than one person that wants to buy your piece, then there's a possibility you can raise your price so it is exactly that standard, and you might lose some money. You You know what, if you did a painting and you spent a long time on it? That's why Scott and I don't even buy expensive frames anymore. It's completely unattainable for us. We just can't do it anymore. So, you know, you it's like you have to think about, yeah, it's long, maybe, if I break even, okay, well now, then hopefully the next one, you know, okay, each I just need someone to subsidize me to keep going, so that I can get better, so that I can keep going. And, I mean, that's what I have to say about prices is that I really do think about, well, what could I live with? What? How much would I literally spend on something, knowing that money is like, how much would I be willing to spend on a couch? Well, how much would I be willing to spend on this? And you have to take a really serious look at, you know, what would you be willing to spend? And if you're not willing to spend $1,200 on somebody else's work, you can't expect them to spend it on yours, right? You've got to start slow, get a following First of all, if someone buys your work for, say, three to $500 most likely they'll buy another piece from you, because that's what they want. They want to like. They want to be collectors, people, inherently, who buy art. Anyone who knows people who buy art, love to show people around their house and say, Oh, look what I bought. I bought this artist. She was young, or I bought this person. It was like, you know, at some store in the mountains. And a great memory. What? Well then they, if you that artist sends them a Christmas card, they're going to feel loyalty. They're going to go, Well, hey, gosh, now I have a relationship with this artist. And you know what I might look at when they have a holiday sale and I might buy something again. So these are the things that I think about. You might hear different, but I'm going to be like, price your work. You know, to sell and then build up, is what I'm going to say, yeah.

Olya Konell 1:05:24

And I think that's important for anybody that's like, oh, you know, but I don't want to lower my value or whatever. Nobody's saying that you should go backwards. Unless you haven't sold anything, then you need to reassess where you're at. But I can speak from personal experience, and I'm not some fancy, famous I mean, I did a lot of commissions of animals because I love them, and when I first started, I made no money. I just covered Mike's fences. I had no idea what I was doing, and I sucked, in my opinion, but people thought it was great, and they paid me money to paint their dog. I said, Sure, why not? I was still learning how to paint, and this was like years ago, but every year, I kept getting more and more commissions and orders, especially around the holidays. And I'm gonna, you know, again, I'm focusing more on commissions. It got to a point where I had too many. My husband goes, you need to increase your prices. I'm like, okay, so I did, and then I did again, and then I did again, and then I had to do it multiple times a year because I was just getting, I didn't have couldn't clone myself, so I could only do so many. And anyway, so what you're saying is completely true and as and the beautiful thing about people that buy work, whether it be an original or a commission or just a piece of of hand painted art, that piece serves as advertising. So that piece goes to someone's house, it hangs on their wall, and people come over and then they want one, or they like, Who is this artist, or they look them up on Instagram. Oh yeah, you know, they share like you said, they show them around their house. Or if it if you are a commission, somebody who takes commissions and actually enjoys them, you know they're going to probably contact you, because they're going to be your best advocate. And then the advice that you just shared about reaching out to your past collectors guys, I cannot understate how important that is. If you literally just did that once a year, you would probably sell to those same people every year, something, a study, a print, a smaller original, and then you can upsell them later, you know, you can say, hey, here's one. It's a little, you know, a little bit bigger, a little bit more, but they might buy it because they already have two of your pieces. Who knows?

Susan Lyon 1:07:32

Yeah, yeah. I

Angela Agosto 1:07:33

love what Scott is saying in here. He said, great advice. Pricing, red dots and perceived scarcity drives pricing up. Collectors, buy multiple prices. Then they love seeing when your prices go up, because they're, like you said earlier, Susan, they support you, and especially they have a connection with you. They want you to thrive. And then they're probably, I'm going to help make sure I buy another piece and

Susan Lyon 1:07:52

and exactly, and I was just saying that, um, you know, my price is probably when I'm in a big show, I probably am probably one of the, the cheapest, but I one of my favorite things is, you know what? I don't like collectors that buy things as investment pieces. I don't those people. They don't really, they don't. They are thinking about, Oh, well, maybe I could put this in an auction five years from now. I mean, I don't want to live off those type of people, the people that I love, just like me saying I don't mind if people, you know, $5 subscriptions. It's like, I actually, you know, when people say, Is it okay if I pay on payments? I go, when someone asks me if they can buy my artwork on payments, I'm like, That person loves my artwork. Yeah. They are like, I was like, Okay, you're the type of person that, yeah, of course you can pay on payments, you know. So, you know, it's all, it's all about your perspective. It really is, you know. So that's, that's what I'm saying. It's kind of like, and I'm not against commissions at all. I mean, I think that if people see your work and they love what you do, then doing a commission for them can be extremely satisfying.

Olya Konell 1:09:03

Yeah, you're getting paid to learn and grow

Susan Lyon 1:09:07

exactly, and you know that you're doing something that those people are going to cherish and probably hand down forever. They're not going to give it like someone found one of my paintings in a goodwill, alright? And they had, and it was not even a bad painting. And she had like, years, you know, emailed me or something, and sent me an email. Just says, Is this one of your paintings? I said, Yes. And she goes, Oh, I think I bought it for like, $20 I was like, wow, that's lucky, wise, because somebody had bought it so long ago and it got inherited. Oh, right. And then maybe the person died, and that those people, those children, could, you know, could care less about it. But when it's a commission, you know that it's personal. You know that it's of the family, of the pet, of a house, of something that they cherish. And so most likely, those paintings are going to live forever.

Olya Konell 1:09:55

Yeah, yeah. Oh, absolutely, especially if it's grand. I love grandpa. Grandpa paintings. Yes, those are my favorite. I love, you know, because you know that is not going anywhere. Great. They're gonna be fighting over it. That's, yeah, it's gonna be

Angela Agosto 1:10:09

the next generation. I have grandparents, beautiful painting of

Olya Konell 1:10:13

them, yeah. And I have somebody saying, I live off of my commissions that must produce my own collections in the hope to get into a gallery. Honestly, if like doing what you're doing and you're loving it, and it's, it's you're, you're making a living doing what you love. Honestly, I would rather do a commission for somebody to pay my bills instead of going and working in some office pressing buttons that I don't like doing something I don't like to pay my bills.

Susan Lyon 1:10:39

So it's very it's not super rewarding sometimes to be in a gallery. It really isn't.

Olya Konell 1:10:47

He has his pros and cons. The right one is yes. Well, that's it. And

Susan Lyon 1:10:50

I was like, I was kind of mentioning how some galleries we all know, like the big galleries, right? The ones we see in magazines, the one that we hear about, like artists who are making lots of money, those are the galleries that are going to be almost impossible to get in, you know. And if you do, for some reason, you're probably going to be low on the totem pole. Go into galleries that are smaller who you know, it's all really, it's like dating. It really, really is you want to know that when somebody walks into their gallery, that that gallery owner is going to lead someone directly to your piece, that they love your work. So it's all about enthusiasm, like, I'm just going to be totally honest. Like, early on, we would go visit galleries, and this was primarily when Scott was in galleries and I wasn't in them, and we'd go into a gallery, and if the gallery owners were, like, dismissive, rude, they didn't know who we were, you know, because we were young, we probably looked poor, you know. And you walk in and they probably could care less. They're like, although they're just, they're just people, tourists who just want to make take up our time. And if they never came over and said hello to us, if we were waiting for them, if they felt they weren't like, pleasing one time, we literally got so disgusted with a gallery that he was in in Aspen. We we were like, we just left. She's such a jerk, you know? And we went to another gallery where the person had in had recognized Scott and said, Oh my gosh, you're Scott Burdick. And we talked to him. They were so friendly. I mean, I don't know if I recommend this, but we literally went back to the other gallery, took the paintings off the wall, walked down the street and gave them those paintings I love, that the gallery has to be people who are friendly, that you can talk to on the phone, that you're not scared of, that you know are trying to help your career out, you know, and that you feel loyalty to if you don't feel loyalty, if they Don't feel loyalty to you, if you don't feel loyalty to them, it just won't work. It will fizzle. And then you'll have to find another gallery and and so that's why I was saying that there's this dream about being in galleries, but if you could find a local gallery, or at least a small gallery that is enthusiastic, that's the best thing. Yeah. And I also just think the ability to sell your own work is is the ultimate. And what all artists are actually moving towards. I mean, they really are.

Olya Konell 1:13:08

And this is something that we echo a lot, and obviously we're biased, because we offer websites, but I you know this, this is where Faso is mission, and the way we do things kind of aligns with how you do it. One of the things that I that I love, why I love working with Faso, is they're some of the cheapest. You can get your foot in the door for like, $15 a month to have a site. Or you can get, like, obviously, one with more bells and whistles, but they're easy to maintain. So if you if it's 2024, 2025 you make art, and you don't own your own name. So your name.com you just you need to own your name, like you have to own your with the word art at the end, or just your name, whatever you want to do. Like, that's almost like having a it's like not having a resume. You need, even if it's not through us, just get it somewhere, buy your domain.

Susan Lyon 1:14:07

Yeah, is that people do write us and ask us about you guys, you know, every now and then say, hey, you know we see that you're with them. Do you recommend them? Or what's your experience? And I'll say, well, they have the nicest customer service. Oh, I know that. I mean, I hate to doubt, like Angela, this is the first time I'm seeing Angela's face. And I almost was a little embarrassed, because, I mean, we probably had a website with you. I don't even know how long, forever when you guys come we started. And how about, I mean, if we could look through the emails of me in just like, dire panic, like, I don't know why this happened, or Angela this has gone wrong, or I don't know what I'm doing. And like, she writes back with the sweetest emails that I always then feel like, Ah, she I don't deserve this because I wrote her in like, you know, custody purpose is a thankless job. And you, really, you guys have always been extremely prompt and very friendly. Yeah, so I am going to say that, like, I don't have never had another, other company I dealt with that is like that,

Olya Konell 1:15:14

yeah, no, we, we do pride ourselves that I was in that, and that means a lot to hear that it's like we're getting a great job. Yeah, you'll make us cry if you keep going. But no, it really like, I thank you, and yeah to everybody listening like what you're saying. You need, if you're gonna it's not just galleries. You need to have a place to display your art. And obviously having a social media account is good, but having your own site with your name, I think is important whether you're just starting out and you need a place to share. Because when you meet people, if they Google your name with the word artist, they're going to find you like that's SEO. Is not applicable to us. Nobody's just going to go into Google and type in artist and then hope you come up. That's not how it works. You have to meet them first and then that way, then they could find your Instagram, and they could find your your Facebook, or whatever it is, wherever you like to share. Yeah.

Susan Lyon 1:16:07

And so whoever is talking about their dream is getting into galleries. Is that if you, if you can put yourself in the in the shoes of a gallery owner, they get dozens of, probably, you know, people reaching out to them every day, like dozens of people every single day, asking to be in their gallery and and so they can pick and choose, but like, say, you put an image in the email, and you just say, hey, you know this, I would love you to check out my work. I love your gallery well. And then they go to your website, and the website is not professional looking, or you have four images come on. You know this? Sometimes when I talk to people, I go, you have to prove that you have a work ethic. Galleries do not want to spend their hard earned time or money, or the what they have built up. They have built up something so big that now you want to be a part of it. But then if, like, they say they're going to take a chance on you, they have to know that you can produce because if they do sell for you, they then don't want to be like, stranded and like you say, Well, I don't, you know, I can't get you anything for another year or two. You're like, Well, why? You know you have to show a lineage of work. You have to show on Instagram that if someone looks at you, they go, okay, yeah, oh, yeah, distant, oh, I've seen them do multiple good images. This isn't the only good image they've ever done. We've all seen like, sometimes you go to someone's Instagram and you're like, wow. Like, did they do this, or did their their technical ability jump 1000 steps, like you have to show, like, a graduation of things that they go, yeah, they do work all the time. They are diligent. They're going to keep, you know, if I like them, they're going to be able to produce and give me stuff. So those are just things to think about. Yeah, absolutely.

Olya Konell 1:17:57

It's like, it's like having, it's creates a sense of professionalism and and that, you know, if you're trying to go for that, it's so important

Angela Agosto 1:18:08

the first collect is that beautiful painting. Like you said, the collector is going to be a repeat customer, and you have nothing else for them to buy, like that was the only good piece. So, yeah, it's definitely important to have something good on Instagram, but also on a website, because that becomes your online if you're not in a gallery, at least have your own online gallery. You want

Olya Konell 1:18:26

to make it so if you meet somebody at a coffee shop while you're traveling and they Google your name, they can find you like you want to make it that way. So, and I know we've, we've, I love this discussion. I know we've jumped around, and I am. ADHD, so thank you for bearing with me as well, because I enjoy that kind of a flow. None of our questions were set in stone. And, you know, we kind of covered a little bit of everything, but kind of does as we land the plane. Or what I would like to kind of wrap up with was business for business insights and career shifts. So like reflecting on your career, was there one piece of business advice that you received early on that shifted how you approached being an artist? And then,

Susan Lyon 1:19:14

gosh, you know, I don't really remember getting that much advice when I was young. I think that it is the probably just one of the main things is just don't have all your eggs in one basket. Don't rely on one revenue stream like I was talking about galleries. Don't rely on it, because it could dry up. And even when galleries were our number one, it used to be, you know, I'm going to say 1015, years ago, galleries were our number one income source. Well, what would happen is we would have to have a gallery on the East Coast, a gallery on the West Coast, a gallery up in the mountains, a gallery in the south like Texas, and you would then know that each gallery had their season. So you would start to go, oh, okay, well now it's coming up summer. Now we go to Jackson Hole. So those are the things that you would know where it's like nowadays. Like, I'm saying it's just not the same. So you can have a gallery here or there, but don't just only rely on that. Like, of course, there's online teaching. But some people, what I find is that they're really intimidated about doing their own online classes. And just like me, I'm not perfectionist, and I just jumped into doing online and the very first online classes I did. I didn't do any live demos because I was nervous about it. I was doing this. You know, what I would do is I would pre tape a demo, so that way I knew it had turned out right, you know, I could, like, you know, simply, just have a simple little demo that I could share live. Or, hey, here's a link. You guys after the class, watch this and maybe for homework, do something, and then I'll critique it during the next class. So my first classes were just me talking and just having a lesson plan and doing Q and A's and like doing a slide show, but then saying, hey, my guys, my demo is something I pre recorded. So you know, those are the things that you just kind of jump in. And I think people are really, really forgiving. I just think as long as you go with the flow, and as long as you offer a lot, and when things go wrong, like laugh, I remember once I did an online class and literally a power outage, and it was just like, what's going on here? Like I was freaking out. And so it took like, five or 10 minutes, you know, to the internet to come back on, and everything to come back. And I

Olya Konell 1:21:25

finally got back to the

Susan Lyon 1:21:26

class, I was like, everybody's still there. It was only my power outage. Everybody else had still stayed in the class, even though I was sweating and I was having a heart attack. You know, what happens in zoom is that the next the first part, it just defaults. So they were all just talking. They were like, Oh, it was so funny, because back, I just couldn't stop laughing. I thought, thank God, but you know, so those are the things that go wrong. But you know you just, you just have to, like, just make sure that you just stay chill, but you know things will go wrong. But I do think that offering information online, you can make money. You know what? Start off with just a zoom live stream where it's just one one afternoon, and charge $50 you know, and you know. So it's not like you could see how it goes, right? And even if you like five people, it will be worth it. Five people for $5 for you sitting in your studio talking to people, it's you know. So don't think that, like, oh my gosh, I have to get you know 100 people. No, five people is enough to start off, so start, just start. That's what I'm saying.

Olya Konell 1:22:45

I love that. And I was actually my like, one of my last questions always is, if there's one last thing, if there was one thing someone could take away from this conversation, what would that piece of wisdom be? And I feel like what you just said right now, just start.

Susan Lyon 1:23:00

Just start. Yeah, yeah,

Olya Konell 1:23:03

and you'll work it out along the way. And we at BoldBrush Faso, we believe that too. We jump into things sometimes, because sometimes you don't know what you don't know, and you can't pre know everything that you don't know without actually doing it. So you figure it out along the way. Yeah, I'm

Angela Agosto 1:23:18

gonna quote Clint here, and hopefully he's okay with it, but he always just just jump off the clip and build the parachute on the way down. And that's been our motto with a lot of stuff, especially funny, when everybody's stuff, you know, kind of came to a halt, that he's like, Okay, we're going to start. And we did something in three weeks that we have been putting off because we thought it was going to take us a year, which was building the online video for artists to be able to sell their workshops or their their classes that they were now, you know, couldn't they were canceled because of the pandemic. So I love that advice.

Olya Konell 1:23:49

Yeah, thank you, Susan. You are a wealth of knowledge. I am envious and jealous of the people that have you on Patreon. I'm just going to have to find you after Yeah, your energy is is absolutely contagious and so inspiring. And honestly, it feels really good to talk to other artists. I'm all getting teary eyed. It feels so good to talk to other humans, other artists that are in the creative space, whether you're photographer, a painter, a sculptor, you know, a writer that are, you know, knowing there's other people on this planet walking alongside us in their own journeys, and that we have the ability to support each other. Why am I so emotional today?

1:24:32

Okay, I think it's because,

Susan Lyon 1:24:34

yeah, I think this your your spirit, and I'm going to go, woo, woo. I think your spirit, you know this, these type of get togethers, yeah, I mean, and what's that saying? It's like this, the mother of necessity or invention is the mother of how do we say that? Thank you. So the mother of necessity, or the invention is the mother of necessity. You know what I'm saying? When you do something, it like you just figure it out. And I feel. Like, would we have ever done this before we had to? Yeah, right, it would have thought it was too expensive. It was to this blah, blah, blah. I personally really like zoom. I people, sometimes they say they don't like it. I like it. I love seeing your faces. I love knowing that people from you know, Australia and Europe and Mexico can all come and we can share. I just saying, that's what I'm saying. I think your spirit is, is really tapping into that, that in your life, we are all here right now, the people here is, like, kind of exciting. So

Olya Konell 1:25:34

it is, yeah, finally

1:25:35

seeing you. I

Angela Agosto 1:25:36

love that. Finally seeing you, you know, the emails and stuff that you know we've been through so that that's great, but you're right. Yeah, what have we been talking about doing webinars for years? And it wasn't until we kind of had to with the you know, zoom, that we're like, do it. We're all online now. There's no excuse. Well,

Olya Konell 1:25:52

and and I want to drop it, or just a quick FYI to everybody, if you want me to, I like to, I like to send all if you have a comment or message for Susan, drop it in the chat. I'm going to send it to her afterwards. I love passing these on. I mean, if there's something that you took away from today, from today's discussion, what's the thing that you're going to do? You know? And thank you for hanging on with us. We went over. We appreciate you. We apologize for going over, but we thank you.

Susan Lyon 1:26:20

Oh my God, never apologize. Okay, we don't, we don't The more the better, the

Olya Konell 1:26:25

more the better. Yes, yeah, so, but yes, if you have something you want me to pass on, put it in the comments. We are so grateful that you're here for joining us. We are grateful for your enthusiasm, your energy. And I'm saying this to the audience and to Susan, thank you as well. I would love to have you and Scott back next year together. I'd be really fun to hear. It'll be more of a comedy, but sure, I'm down, I'm down.

Susan Lyon 1:26:49

I will get so much nitpicking. I'll be like, Susan, let's got talk. Susan, be nice to Scott.

Olya Konell 1:26:56

We'll, we will preface this. We'll be like, You know what? Be prepared to laugh. This is going to be Yeah, love it.

1:27:04

Thank you everybody. Thank you everybody.

Olya Konell 1:27:07

Thank you everybody. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Have a creative rest of your week. Bye, everyone. Bye.

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