Bob/Mike,
Great conversation regarding the future of creativity and the death of rock. I appreciated the analysis of kids being influenced by the technology available for creators depending on when they were born.
I don't think voice command will be the future in 10 or 20 years. Artificial intelligence will be anticipatory and will know the drums and guitar the producer wants to add to the track before he has to ask. Siri and Alexa's grandchild will be 1000x smarter and a will be a co-creator rather than a command taker.
The definition of what it means to be a musician will change again. We saw it in hip hop when DJ's hacked turntables and turned them into instruments, and we now see it with a new generation of producers who solely use computer software.
New days ahead and they're coming quick!
Troy Carter
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Mike's right...and been right for quite some time now in the music industry. His track record speaks for itself...The changing of the guard has been in motion for a over a decade and you either embrace it or move aside for the next gen...Michael Mavrolas/ Genuine Music Group
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bob;
i agreed with steve lillywhite and mikael johnston to a great extent.
however with all due respect and thanks to their hands-on truths there may be a universal one.
you can pick many dates upon which rock may have died .
multi-track recording ( i.e. the jump from 4 to 8 track recording from which the " we can fix this later " mindset was allowed to corrupt the real deal. ) ; just as easily you could affix the blame to laptops, corporate stewardship and management. or perhaps the moment young bands had the beatles, stones, who etc to look back on as role models to emulate or rebel against as opposed to a poor pussy, hooch and cadilac driven brother in chicago or the south.
rock is a universal attitude that fortunately collided in time with les ford , vinyl, chuck berry, elvis , the beatles , the birth pill and a couple of wars. rock is an attitude whose acompanying holler , stomp and attire allowed us to escape the future our parents and peers had mapped out for us. that, of course, will never happen again.
but the fundamentals of rock remain a great song , played and performed by folks who light up our lives and make dreams and getting laid a possibility of the day.
so therefore we still have rock..... it's attitude, baby ....
best, o
Andrew Loog Oldham
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I'm not understanding all of the whining? Music has changed and the bus left the station almost 20 years ago. This guitar based art-form lasted about 40 years and had a phenomenal run. Almost 1/2 a century. I am quite certain that the thousands of ace musicians from the Glenn Miller band, the Dorsey Brothers, Ellington, Basie, Artie Shaw, Stan Kenton, Benny Goodman, Buddy Rich bands were all facing the exact same dilemma when Elvis, Buddy Holly, Little Richard, James Brown, the Beatles, Stones, Airplane, Doors, Hendrix, Cream all arrived. Kids change, styles change, music changes and shit happens.
Best Regards,
randy alpert
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Mike is so dead on here. We're headed to a world where a kid tells a piece of software to play a drum track "like" When the Levee Breaks and they're gonna make a song. The question is who does 95 year old Jimmy Page sue?
Justin Bartek
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Steve Lillywhite speaks truth.
Barry
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All I know is the future has no more genres.
And maybe it will indeed be created by voice-prompted software, crafted by some teenager who gets around around in a driver-less Uber, drinking Vegan Redbull.
I don’t actually care. As long as the MUSIC IS GREAT.
But I still agree with your initial argument: which is Rock is dead. Because, hell, it’s been a while since anyone did anything Great! Why else would U2 come out and tour a 30 year old album…. Don’t get me wrong, I love The Joshua Tree, but that’s beside the point. There’s nothing really new in Rock to shout about.
In electronica, on the other hand……
Edo Van Duijn
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I agree with Steve Lillywhite.
Rock died because technology became available for anyone to multi-track in their bedroom.
This meant the very idea of a band became obsolete. Why deal with flakey musicians, pay to rehearse at a rehearsal studio and then pay a studio to record when you could do everything yourself at home from composition to final recording by playing all the parts using your computer?
Even artists who play in bands play quieter music since they rehearse at home in headphones.
Rock music is not possible without playing loud.
Add to that the cultural changes. There is no reason to rebel anymore when you have endless high quality entertainment on netflix, cable TV, music streaming etc.
Rock will continue as a niche genre like jazz and blues. But I doubt it will ever be the dominant musical art form ever again.
Steve Gordon
Co-Founder Sequoia Records
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The Charlie Puth example is on-point.
Here is someone who is obviously musically talented, and isn’t afraid to allow technology to do its job.
Auto-Tune was invented to make up for talented artists’ lack of sobriety. Today, it makes up for sober artists’ lack of talent. Charlie Puth is an exception. So am I. So are many others in the gig/niche economy.
Music is becoming specialized, but hits still make the difference!
John Kay
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Rock died? hmmm, I hadn't noticed. Pretty alive in my world. "chuckle"
Howard Klopak
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Rock will never die! You are only talking about "rock money". It's dead.. and so is your thinking.
Johnny Brower
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Rock didn't die, it's just eclipsed by a new thing. There are still incredible rock acts putting out great music. Take Big Wreck for instance. Blistering guitar work by Ian Thornley. For a band that had a hit in the late 90's, fell apart in the early 00's and reformed 10 years later to release and tour on more new and innovative music. But they don't come to the US, because the money isn't here. Metal makes big money in Europe, and Rock makes money in Canada. The truly great artists have never been in the spotlight. They've been the people inspiring those who are in the spotlight.
Joel Price
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All the greats were world-builders. They evoked new visions, new possibilities, new ways of interacting with reality in our minds and hearts with their songs – and especially their albums. They believed they absolutely could and should do this, as creative contributors.
Things have changed for young people, now fed on the zombie-Apocalypse, passive consumption and the pseudo-agency of video games... morphing into feckless cyborgs, just like they're told to do.
latestproject
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When they removed music from schools (remember the flutophone?) they began a slow erosion of interest in the arts.
Joseph Barbarotta
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It may be in a coma, but it's not dead yet...
Blackberry Smoke on Jools Holland
youtu.be/Lfjfnn5aNk0 Trey Wilson
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Please let Steve know that for some of us... he couldn't be more wrong... and this is coming from a music, techno-geek wannabe musician here... the LIVE sound of an electric guitar sends shivers up and down my spine... and a true bass... (not manufactured from some sound loop) vibrates within my soul... I might give him that I can generate some kickass drums on my laptop... but the rest... is magic... no doubt about it...
Have a great evening!
Al Krause
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Bob I must admit Steve Lilywhite makes such a great point that never crossed my mind. You can't make guitar music on a laptop so of course that would have something to do with it even though we know we live in an urban culture or should I say urban want to be culture
Johnny Vieira
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Rock died the day pot was overtaken by coke. It's really as simple as that. Music listening at a concert used to be the shared -- and fairly mellow, even at hard rock shows -- experience. Then listening was pushed aside for the mosh pit or the dance floor. Never been the same since.
Dave Curtis
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Steven Spielberg, amongst several others, explained that he predicted that voice command would dominate the post millennium youth when he made Back the Future II. There's a scene when Marty McFly shows the confused kids in the 80's cafe how to play the western shooting arcade game, and after their response to Marty's impressive shooting is, "you have to use your hands? That's a babies toy!" It was game over the day Echo dropped, post Siri. Did you miss the single Alex The Kid dropped using the assistance of IBM's Watson, creative and liberal arts seem to be following the path all else is these days, artificial intelligence, AI, automation. Do we even know the "kids" will be the the ones continuing to make music? AI is already writing screen plays in their entirety, and algorithms have proven to pick out music for us better than any human, so why can't the write music that satisfies our taste best from origination? Progress, or?
Michael Burnett
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I watched a legend perform a couple of hours ago .. he was incredible and this performance was truly special. Gordon Lightfoot hasn't been well these past few years but he came out tonight on Parliament Hill in Ottawa to celebrate Canada's 150th birthday!
You must check it out!
Best,
Dayle Levy
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Rock died because it stopped being forbidden and dangerous a long time ago.
Rap took it's place with the emergence of NWA and has remained music most parents can't relate to since.
This was part of rock's inherent appeal ("Turn that crap down") but once parents and kids started listening to the same artists it was date stamped.
George Gilbert
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true. witness the evolution of fuzz tone, Satisfaction and multi track. etc.
Mass Music has always been in parallel with technology.
Rock needs to have some raw edges and digital doesn't lean in that direction.
Bob Beru
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Bob, it's really the same as it ever was. my Dad owned/operated a bunch of record stores, mostly in upstate New York, from the early 60's until the mid-80'. First under the name Midtown Records, later on as Record Theater. 40 or so years ago, back in the late 70's, your Steve Miller's and Peter Frampton's and Fleetwood Mac's and ELP's and ELO's, and on and on, were spreading their wings, soaring to untold heights, only to find themselves wondering, 40 years later, what the hell had happened and who these young upstarts were that had usurped their place in the sun. . Well, back then, in 1977 or so, artists with names like Armstrong and Ellington and Goodman and Crosby (not the one who hooked up with Stills & Nash) and their contemporaries from the late 30's and early 40's, were doing the same thing. A few of them were still out there touring, playing tent theaters, performing arts centers, Indian casinos. If it was a band, hardly any of the original players were still around for the last few laps (victory, or otherwise). Hell, my Dad took me to a performance of "Glenn Miller's Big Band" in maybe 1962, and he'd disappeared over the English channel back in '44. So who's left in Sabbath or Purple, and who's gonna know or care in another 20?? By then someone will be mounting a "Classic EDM" tour, and Avici & Kygo will be off in a corner, grumbling about the good old days.
Same as it ever was, for sure.
Barry Lyons / Rent A Label
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You and Mike are unfortunately wrong in my humble opinion. Music production technology (namely in regards to rock music) only offer shortcuts for those who don't have the creative will or ambition to push the boundaries of recording original and boundary pushing tracks. You think Pro Tools, iPads and Garage band can cultivate great vocalists with compelling lyrics who can then become public icons who's messages resonate with the youth and help shape their values and identity? No way. We're seeing a resurgence of youth that want to hear a message that they can stand behind. Not a regurgitated sample and an easy way to make a faceless hit that will be forgotten within a year. Rock's far from dead, you just aren't in the right clubs at the right shows turning over the right stones.
Respectfully,
Chris Foitel
A&R
Epitaph
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There's a lot to be said for why rock has lost market share but I'd
like to speak about one thing that has taken the magic out of rock music.
It's called the click track. Before the click track 3 or 4 or 5 musicians had
to get in a room and knock it out together. It was a performance. The
pulse, groove, and tempo created by the musicians. A breathing organism.
One musician falters and it's back to the top. Again!
With the advent of the click track, music could be created in pieces often times
by only one person.
Back in the day we used to capture a performance. Now we manipulate them.
I could go, but that's a big part of why the adventurous and creative nature of
the music has been diminished.
--
Peter A. Barker
www.spinmoverecords.com ___________________________________
I'm on board with this guy. One thing I noticed from the feedback you got is that there is no common definition of what "Rock" actually is.. But I applaud John Carter for raising the race issue, which is always pertinent when discussing any aspect of American culture.
If you go back to the beginning of Rock and Roll as a mass-culture phenomenon, it was consciously an anti-racist enterprise on the part of people like Sam Phillips, Alan Freed, Elvis, Buddy Holly, and others. That's on the historical record. By the early '70s, FM Rock radio had started to close itself off racially, a betrayal of the original spirit of Rock and Roll. Over time, as John Carter points out, "Rock" became the music of the suburbs, closed off from outside influences and endlessly feeding off itself, recycling itself. If that particular thing is dead, then good riddance to it..
sincerely,
Name witheld by request
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Sure rock gave way to its corporate and complacent stage in the latter 70s. Artists in the early stages did it out of survival. Very few outside of Prince and Springsteen at one time had the itch to become better and better as they progressed. Show business and big money took over and the indie and alternative scene was just the Velvet Underground all over again without as much impact. Popular music had its 20th Century and maybe the ism and sound hippies will make electronic the renaissance of composers...in the way classical music had its significance.
Peter Gianakopoulos
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What Michael Caren describes has no chance of being interesting.
Daniel Dwyer
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Rock's death knell for me came the other day. I was talking to a ~50 year-old business associate who told me he had a hobby band who play live gigs for (albeit small) $$, have original material and sell CDs at their gigs. I said "cool... what kind of original material do you do?" He said: "Classic Rock." Makes total sense. Mainstream rock is now officially a dead music form, like Classical music or traditional Jazz. Sure, people still compose Classical music and write traditional Jazz tracks. But there's no attempt to move the music form forward. And no significant fan following.
Jeff Vidler
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Mike is right.
It's always all been in my head. Even my dreams. The day of being able to extract this easier is going to be the next renaissance.
- ryan star
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Right on Bob! Where is the innovation? Where is the energy? Listen to Nirvana today and it is still like new! But does the status quo support artist development in the way it did when rock was young? Many great artists took two or three albums to get their mojo working.
Phil Wagner
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I have a handful of young producers that work in
my company/studios. I have always leaned on
the importance on mastering your instrument
and knowing as much as you can about every form of
music.
One of the youngest interns ( and smartest ) came up
to me and asked me what my first instrument
was. I told him the piano. He the said “ Do you know what
mine was?” I said I wasn’t sure. He then said “ The computer”
When that set in……I started understanding where these
kids were coming from.
Doesn’t mean I like it…it’s just the way it is.
STEVE LINDSEY
BLOTTER, INC.
THOU ART THE HUNGER/WARNER CHAPPELL
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Rock didn't die. It just now is called Country
John Huie
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Mike’s right. The "tools” of making music will become easier - just as they have with photography.
What’s missing from all this is the Producer.
Truth is, a lot of the greatest music of the 60s, 70s, and (dare I say it) 90s was the product of two almost forgotten forces.
The willingness of record companies to bank their artists till they broke through AND the great producers who turned excellent into magic.
Imagine the Beatles without George Martin just for starters. They would have been excellent but not likely magic.
I think of phenomenal songs and albums by Dylan, Hendrix, Cream, Leonard Cohen, just to name a sliver of a sliver of the greats from the era and in many cases their breakthrough, turnaround or seminal work was made that way by great producers.
When you make it all yourself, you run the run of devolving - as McCartney did for a while when he did everything himself - your ego gets in front of the music, you don’t have perspective.
It’s like a book manuscript without a good editor - usually not so great.
John Parikhal
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Anyone else notice the guy touting JEFF the Brotherhood has the same last name as the brothers that make up the band??
They ARE good, tho. Real good.
Jon Langston
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Bob, I’m all about the future even though I was the first to go digital in Nashville with the Synclavier and the Sony 3348, both totaling 250k+ to purchase and then sold at a loss; each for under 5k. Neither can compete with Logic for 200.00.
Keith Thomas
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Bob, The statement below (Mike Caren) is not going to happen with any degree of seriousness, precision or craft. All that shit about AI composers and voice activated sample gathering/manipulating is hooey. Rock isn't dead, neither is Jazz, Classical whatever....Kids (young musicians) are already rebelling against overly tech productions and are hand crafting and rolling their own. Sure, you have to use a box to build it, but as long as there are angry young musicians, there will be push back against the status quo. FYI, I use a computer everyday to create music, my day job.
You are already seeing "no computers" nightclubs/DJ shows. Look at the traditions and evolution of other great forms e.g. Indian/Pakistani, Irish, to name just a few, and how the past always influences the future. The past still remains relevant and visible, especially today. Old music is STILL being discovered and communicated in the original intended format as well as new arrangements.
People will ALWAYS want to get their hands dirty, because playing music is not just an emotion you feel. For us, the players, it is the feeling of the instruments in our hands. If you don't play, you can't know this.
Best regards,
fritzdoddy
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ROCK n ROLL thrives within the local city bars performed and maintained by young and old unknown artists. That's where it belongs and that's where it will live forever. You want good rock n roll? Go to a dive bar in Hamtramck Michigan (or any dive bar outside of tourist-America) and you will feel the excitement that rock and roll gives. Its right there! Radio rock was a fad.
bogdon vasquaf
detroit usa
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Humble Pie was great! Early Steve Miller was great! Then, Frampton and Steve Miller sucked and they still suck! Joe Walsh and I used the talk box before Frampton new it existed. Joe Walsh used it best and still does. “Do you feel, feel like I do?’ NO! But the chicks did. Just like you said, Bob. The guy’s will follow the chicks. Sacrifice anything, even music, for the chicks.
Markie Z
P.S. Right. Modern label guy’s. That just told you everything you needed to know.
Markie Z
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I agree with Mike and would add that millennials rely on technology far
more than previous generations to get to the end result with everything,
not just music. Is that working smarter not harder or is it just lazy? I
think it can be either depending on the application. I see this behavior
in my own kids and all their friends. I don't think they're bad kids, In
many ways they?re smarter and as I said more efficient than my generation.
Furthermore because they have so many more distractions music doesn't
carry the same level of social importance that it did when I was growing
up so the incentive to work insanely hard on one thing isn?t there, nor is
it even part of their culture. Some researchers are saying that
millennials are not lazy but just far better at multitasking than previous
generations. The argument I've read is that they don?t focus on any one
thing but rather many things all at once. If this is true is it going to
lead to a generation of kids that are ?jacks of all trades masters of
none?˛ or will we eventually evolve into a smarter more efficient species;
what does that mean for the future music? I think it'?s leading to the
permanent death of ?rock" but beyond that who knows.
Kind Regards,
Mikael Johnston
Producer - Engineer - Remixer
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Why do some many of you readers care what young people listen to. The boomers have the money and time to listen and enjoy. Barking up the wrong tree won' get the bear to come down!
Steve Boone
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Totally true. When I was a kid watching Ed Sullivan, post Beatles, it was easy to tell which bands were cool and which weren’t. Bands with guitars, organs and long hair were in, bands with saxophones and greased hair weren’t.
The guitar is the saxophone of today. Just like with the sax post Beatles, guitars will get used on records the odd time, people will trot them out occasionally live, and there will be the odd band that features one. But that’s it.
Michael McCarty
PS and songs will be written by artificial intelligence
PPS and humans will bring the art by how they screw up the AI dials and hook one thing into another that wasn’t meant to be. In other words, humans will be conducting the robots.
PPPS and given that once their studio era started, the Beatles were all about pushing the limits of music creation technology, there is no question if they were starting out today they would go this route, including using AI. But Lennon would still insist on being swung around the mic on a rope!
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Greetings Bob,
I was compelled to write more for addressing the responses you received to your article "Why Rock Died" than the article itself.
I own a music school in Texas and our primary distinction from other music schools (a'la School or Rock which we most definitively ARE NOT) is our ability to put young bands together. We currently have 5 complete bands, ages 12-17 years old, writing material and recording. The genres range from alt punk, alt rock to prog metal. We have 5 more bands currently in the making and a roster of under-18 session guitarists, bassists and drummers that fill in for bands when needed for recording, rehearsal, performance, etc.
From what I see every day, rock is not dead, metal is not dead and guitar, bass and drum solos are still being performed ^v^
I'm not saying rock is going to be the popular mainstream genre of the moment anytime soon but I believe there is a tide turning. House venues, streaming revenue, social fan development and understanding the value potential of the brand are all key elements of what we teach...that and a damn good live performance with great material.
I am seeing the future musicians and they are carrying the torch of rock and blazing their own highway in the new digital music landscape.
Cristal Givens
Chief Strategist
wwwAlchemyMusicTx.com
@alchemymusictx
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Have to agree with lots of the posters. Kids don't have patience and have infinite distractions. Everybody I know who plays guitar well had one summer where there was no school, no summer job so they just practiced. By September they were decent enough to connect with others who had done the same.
As to sales, how many Strats and Les Pauls ever hit the trash bin? Likely going to happen as it has to pianos, but the Steinways are the last to get cut up. So what you have to look is whether the number of guitars out there is up or down. Then look at the number being played. Like pianos, I'm sure a great number are just decoration.
You can use tech to help polish a turd, but a great singer is still that. Wonder where they are all hiding? Only takes one or two to change everything.
Peter Burnside
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I don't know man. Every time you write about this sentiment, I wonder why you over look the jam scene. It's not dead, it's just actually an underground movement with a lot more power than you give it credit for.
You wrote about Twiddle not too long ago. You need to go to Wakarusa and Summer Camp and Hulaween and see Dead and Co. and Trey Anastasio Band and String Cheese Incident and Umphrey's McGee and the hundreds of other bands that litter the scene. They all survive because the fans are rabid.
Who cares about Spotify numbers. That just shows us what the masses who still listen to mainstream media for their taste making are doing, and that doesn't tell us anything that we haven't known for years...
I would say Rock is not dead, but has returned to the roots that you yearn for, you just aren't there to see it.
Keep Rockin,
Jesse Barney
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Thank you for this email. I work in the world of electronic music, and am in belief this emerging genre is the rock and roll of my generation. Especially when you look at and examine the bass music market, the sound and its fans align themselves with the reactionary movements of rock, especially punk music, in decades past.
I tend to share this conversation with friends and family when attending music events throughout the year, and am always perceptive and interested to hear different ideas and points of view.
Regards
Sam Hutchinson
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Many supposed reasons, but I think the main reason is guitar players stopped searching. It's paint by numbers nowadays. Recycling the great riffs of the giants. Now I really love Roy Buchanan's playing because he somehow reinvented the guitar every time he picked it up. He and the guitar were one unit and he could play it like a voice. Hendrix did that. All the great old players - and I don't think there were really that many great players - did that because there wasn't a ton of material out there to recycle.
Not easy to build a new kind of highway or mouse trap.
Never really has been.
I don't think it's that young folks don't wanna take the time. Look at John Mayer. There are great young players out there. It's just the road is so well traveled that the parts are just boring - regardless of pyrotechnics.
Been there heard that a thousand times over.
And there is the speed of modern production with Ableton, Pro Tools etc.
I think it's lack of innovation. Sort of in the same state as fine art is nowadays. What to do post Picasso, Van Gogh etc?
No blame really. It just needs some time to percolate. Clear the air.
I suspect it will come.
Richard Sales
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Hi Bob,
Though so many of the views expressed here are strong points, as an engineer/producer of 30+ years, I've always preferred to look forward into the light to discover new and exciting talent in all genres rather than lament glory days of the past. Case in point: There is a new generation of extremely-gifted, high-tech players out there who are pushing the envelope. Not just by twiddling samples and plug-ins, but by mastering their instruments at mouth-gaping levels -- guitarists, especially. The level of musicianship displayed by these young guys is staggering. They're picking up where Vai and Satriani have left off.
Sure, it's advanced and appeals to musician nerd brothers. But many "regular" kids within audiences are now also jumping on, fascinated by the experience and feeling the energy.
I won't post any links here because I don't want you to think I'm promoting. I am not personally working with any of these artists at the moment. But these bands blow me away. They give me hope that there are still young musicians out there who pursue a passion for the craft and the art of mastering their instruments along with composing colorful musical journeys. Also interesting in these cases is that vocals have been taken out of the equation. The spotlight is purely on the playing.
Check out Arch Echo, Polyphia, Intervals, Angel Vivaldi, Chon, Nick Johnston, to name a few. I'm seeing more surfacing regularly. Their YouTube/Spotify numbers are looking pretty good. This Rock is quite alive.
Regards,
Mark Gaide
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Hey Bob. I'm a nobody who follows your thread and sometimes agrees with you and sometimes doesn't. On the subject of Why Rock Died I wanted to add this: I'm 52 years old and have seen many a great show in my day. I can distinguish between a great show and a let's just get paid show. There are two acts touring now that put on great shows. One is Roger Waters. The thought and effort that goes into the stage show is huge. The production of the Wall he did on his last tour blew my mind. The other one is Rammstein. I discovered these guys by accident in 1999 when they were 4th on the bill of The first Family Values tour. I watched them with my jaw hanging and new nothing I saw for the rest of the night would come close. I saw them for the second time this past Sunday at Jones Beach. It was worth the 18 year wait. These acts are fantastic but the stage show they provide is an aspect of what makes them great. I'm sure there are others that I have not seen but the point is, go to the show and see for yourself. You might be pleasently surprised.
Mike Ruggerio
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"Siri, I want the drums to like this 'boom boom bop, boom ba doom boom bop.' Make it sound like the drums from 'when the levee breaks.'"
That's assuming that future generations know that sound, or more specifically, what sound they're looking for. How will they have any reference if traditional instrumentation evaporates?
- Seth Adam
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My view is that rock/indie /alternative acts have to wake up and readjust their whole mind sets and offer producers the publishing to the following rough formula :
50 % - track / production
25 % - lyrics / lyrical concept
25 % - melody
This is the only way to attract the top production talent in the world back into this genre : your Diplo's, Benny Blanco's and Metro Boomin's etc...
Best wishes
Darren Michaelson
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He (Charlie Puth) is also a graduate of Berklee’s audio engineering and music production department.
Leanne Ungar
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WTF? People think Fleet Foxes play rock? And when did Wilco ever have a hit? Americana artists are allergic to hits; they've got more rules than "alternative" bands in the 90's. They're not even allowed to look good in promo pics which apparently all have to look like they were taken in the 1880s.
You wanna know why rock's dead, it's because nobody dances to it; simple as that, and it's exactly the same thing that killed jazz. If it's in a museum, you can take a college course and there's a hall of fame, the writing is on the wall. But start making some rock music that moves peoples feet and butts and see if rock'n'roll don't rear its ugly head yet again.
Mojo Bone
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I have been around since the beginning when technology started to have a earl effect in the music..from the Mini Moog to the Prophet,Linn Drum,to where we are at now. I saw people buy $250,000 Synclaviers and at one point I had 17 road cases fill of synthesizers to work in the studios making albums...now I have 3 keyboards to use live and the rest in the computer.i have more keyboards and synthesizers in my computer than I ever had when I was recording with the likes of Luther Vandross and Mikes Davis. It is becoming easier and easier to make music that sounds professional...but what still lacks is a heartbeat with feeling..you still need to know how to make the magic if you plan on being around for awhile...Siri in the future may do all of the things including making music but it's still going to need ideas to create something with heart and soul
Peace,Jason
Jason Miles
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My kid had a choice: do the homework assignments all through middle and high school, or get really awesome on guitar. He chose guitar. He's impatient with those who wish they played but won't put in the work. That's my boy! (sans H.S. diploma.)
Paula Fraceschi
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For authenticity, stunning musicianship, driving rhythms, melodies, harmonies, and lyrics that can be both uplifting and dark, I go with bluegrass.
Jeffrey I. Horowitz
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Dear Bob,
You're simply wrong.
I, and thousands of 40 year old (plus) men and women, went out to a second sold out show of Died Pretty and Radio Birdman last night.
Rock may be dead in America, but the rest of the world hasn't cared about America in decades.
Love,
Rockers of Australia
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And once it was the clarinet that stood in front and played all the fast, high notes.
Remember Benny Goodman with Lionel Hampton, Gene Krupa, and Teddy Wilson?
Hiromi Trio Project (with Simon Philips, 19 years with Toto and co-author and player on Jeff Beck’s Space Boogie) gives up nothing to guitar except maybe the phallic part.
So, like tennis, golf, and waterskiing, things come and go.
David Scott Carlick
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It's expensive to make good rock music. It's really is, and the labels won't take the risk to back rock when there's lower hanging fruit. That's why rock is middle class dominated and has lost a certain edge. Even punk is expensive to make these days. The wheel always turns, people want change. Guitars will return, but it will take huge sacrifice on the part of the rockers.
Outsider.
Sean Corcoran
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While you white male music executives debate these crusty old topics, you have festivals like Ruido Fest in Chicago and rock bands like Chicano Batman thriving or retro soul vibes of Kaliuchis or how about punk rock's Downtown Boys with a decolonized take on the genre led by an Afro-Latina or another Afro-Latina Princess Nokia literally moshing at Roskilde this weekend.
But I guess you won't notice or talk about that until Justin Bieber's on the track...or Jack White co-signs it (oh wait, he did already!)
GET OUT OF YOUR $HELLS!!!!!
Natalia Linares
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I don't think genre should ever matter when it comes to music. Separating music genres separates its "source" which should never be separated. People then in turn blow off really good music because they have an opinion of the way it sounds before listening to it. I'm guilty of it too. Honestly, we should just be able to listen and explore and celebrate it all without judgement. The world and music would be much happier.
Just something to chew on today...
Michael Dirks
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Rock isn't dead, it just smells funny.
Nick Feldman
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Rock died because the suits killed it. Kids these days won't take the time to learn an instrument? WTF planet is he from. YouTube is full of shitsters who think they are hot and are not, yet it is also full of gob smacking talent. The problem is getting traction in an industry run by republicans seeking dollars instead of talent and enlightenment. Every town in the nation has a music scene, but no one covers it. Rock lives, it lives in the souls of artists irregardless of listenership. Cheers, Pete from Toronto.
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Everything is different today. There are so many examples of that. At the core of it all, and the cause of it all, is the Gameboy. When that little shit came out we lost at least two generations - X and Millennial. I remember my nephew Conor - now 36 - as a 10 year old sitting in the back of the car obsessing with that thing. Fast forward to the smart phones of today and you have those two generations still flailing away with their thumbs and donating their lives to social media.
There are no musical heroes - other than perhaps Taylor Swift - who show kids another way - a musical way. No one buys a beautiful "album" or even a CD anymore. There are no liner notes or back stories to embellish the artist and reveal his/her thoughts in putting the music together. No list of band members I used to be so interested in. Just an invisible stream with no information and with nothing shiny and new to get excited about.
But it's not just music. In our 30s Jeanne and I discovered the Hobie Cat and we fell in love with sailing. Then it was the windsurfer and we would do both down in San Diego at Mission Bay. The bay was a mural of sails of all kinds and there was a flourishing Hobie and windsurfer rental concession. There were parties on the beach with groups of sailing friends doing BBQs and having a great time.
About five years ago we revisited Mission Bay on a normally busy weekend and there were no sails on the bay. Just kayaks. The rental place was still there but they had only kayaks. The original owner was there and we got talking about the change that has taken place. He said simply, "no one wants a learning curve to anything any more". "They just want to get into a no brainer kayak for an hour and then go home to their computers." "They work 60 hours a week and have no time to acquire skills." "End of story." And those adults are raising kids with a "no time for fun" ethic. And so they disappear into a virtual world. I would say "sad" but Trump has destroyed that word.
So, who's going to take the countless hours we did developing our musical skills? A few. And so the drop is sales. And with music now so easily and cheaply available, it has lost it's cache with the young. They would rather tweet. And so would their president.
What is wildly ironic is that it has never been easier to learn to play an instrument. We used to have to slow down records to try and figure out what was going on and now it can be learned note by note on YouTube. I wonder how much better my skills would be today if I had that going for me OR would I be another thumb banger? I prefer to believe the former.
Kevin Shipman
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Thanks for including my reply in your rundown here. It's always nice to see the dialogue unfold in the aftermath of your pieces.
I was just listening to Dylan's "Boots of Spanish Leather" (my favorite Bob song, I like the early stuff the best). Anyways, I had forgotten where he recorded 'The Times They Are A Changin' LP and went digging for some facts and came across this:
That record peaked at #20 in US!
Fair to say, one of the most influential records of the twentieth century, and it wasn't even close to a hit! Which again sums up my main critique of much of your writing: so much focus on the hits and we miss the really important stuff happening just below the surface.
How many #1 hits has Dylan had in his illustrious career?
Zero.
But he just won a Nobel Prize (for what it's worth).
You might consider shifting your gaze away from the so-called hit makers and bemoaning the sad state of affairs in the industry and look instead to all the things that are beautiful about music in America today (not to mention the rest of the planet).
Have you heard the new Father John Misty? Feist? Two great records. And FJM is selling out large theaters across the country with a captivating live set. Not stadiums, but who wants to go to those shows anyways? They sound terrible. And Feist's live show (though poorly attended compared to two albums ago) was outstanding.
Good things are happening in music! You just have to dig a little deeper!
Thanks again!
Will Phalen
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It seems the closest you will get to Rock are the tribute bands. Musicians that can imitate, but not innovate,can mimic but can not improvise. I see a lot of young kids on you tube that can take shred, but they can't make music. Shredding is fun, I do it to warm up before I play in my little studio, but it ain't music. Another thing is the best Rock bands were rooted in the blues, young people nowadays are rooted in their phones, pun intended. You hit the nail on the head country lyrics are too hokey that is why I can't get into a lot of country. I could spew on for hours because I have this discussion with friends all the time. Then there is talent, like you mentioned jazz players played for the thrill of playing jazz, it was music, but it is also a science, and yes, every jazz musician I know of wants to kick the other jazz musician in the ass. Very few rock guitarist nowadays hear music as a science and they do not strive to be the baddest. They only want to better their bank account not their playing ability. Brian Wilson wanted to create the baddest album on earth, not to make himself richer, but too have the feeling of creating the baddest album on earth. I pray my grandchildren and great-grandchildren will be able to take a class in their music conservatory titled "The Artistry Of The Who," or "The Music Of Jethro Tull."
PS. This just crossed my mind, whatever happened to the band that was in the bubble? Exactly.
Montry Carroll
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I am very surprised at the response you got from that letter. I was not going to respond but now i feel a responsibility ..you touched on some very good points as usual...the biggest problem in the biz is that there are too many people who just do not deserve to be there..technology is turning assholes into stars..it is unbelievable which is why you will not be singing the so called hits of today in ten years..the music is just not that good.. the Beatles, Led Zep..yeah..I am not sorry i did not make it BIG..i probably would have blown it anyway because i come from very little..if it had not been for my grandparents who were not poor i might not be alive...the reality in arts for the most part is that most of the people that actually made it in a big way came from nothing...it is that hunger for something more and better that drives an artist..i do not give a fuck what anyone wants to say about Journey.. show me a singer who can duplicate Steve Perry..they had to go to fucking Korea to find a replacement for him...and you know i have been to Seoul,,lemme tell ya music is highly regarded there...a couple of my musician friends were backstage at a Starship concert at Casino Rama in Ontario with Mickey Thomas on vocals..another of my heroes...they both remarked to each each other there is only one guy we know who can sing like that...Randy Dawson!...believe it ..i am that good..i am so sick and tired of these fucking wannabes expecting the world on a platter because they learned three chords..it is disgusting to the Art. and people wonder why i dont give a fuck about the biz anymore....been there done that..but i still love to sing and play and as long as i am alive ill keep doing it when people wanna hear it ..you are right..kids today are lazy..if you really knew what it is like to be on the road as i was for so long you would have a grasp of how hard it really is make a mark in your career.. i dont know how they do it today...when i was on the road in the seventies everything was cheap...gas was 45 cents a gallon.cigarettes were 50 cents..you could eat in the local ma and pa restaurant for 35 bucks a week ...you couldnt get through a day now for less than 30 bucks in a restaurant. i could go on and on but as a responsible father of two professional daughters i wanna make clear i admire the kids in the business today and wish they would just do their homework..or take it on the road young brave ones.....haha..love ya man
Randy Dawson
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Hi Bob,
My thoughts....
Rock is dead is not news. But it is much more complicated. What is Rock? It is 2017 and, No one wants to be labelled "rock". Then within rock, there are to many scary sub genres. Even worse than "rock" is being alternative, not classic, not hair, not grunge, glam, southern, coffeehouse, arena, hard rock, progressive, punk or the catch all INDIE. $0 is being spent on looking for new rock talent and that is exactly what they are getting in return.
Is there an audience? Pink Floyd was on the top albums chart for 14 consecutive years. 740 weeks. The group of people that consumed Pink Floyd for 14 years are not all dead, they want depth and complexity and are looking for good music. NOT Taylor Swift. Not 3 min radio ditties. Still active listeners. 740 weeks was that not Rock?
If Billy Idol came out right now, is he considered rock? he is not new wave, hes not disco, thats stuffs not cool, no one wants to labelled rock. It is not the hot Itunes category. It is not cool like Justin talentless Bieber and Katy vanilla Perry, Not classic, not grunge, not alternative, not metal, Im "Indie" WTF. Bryan Adams? Billy Squier? Boston? The Doors? Foo Fighters? U2? Van Halen?
Does this audience buy music? The real bands play their music and dont worry about radio play, MTV or Itunes- Scorpions, Metallica, ACDC, Led Zeppelin, Iron Maiden, all 50M RIAA and above are they not Rock? No one plays a single song on the radio still 50M certified. Notice I do not even need to mention any one hit wonders to reach critical mass.
Is Rock dead? The industry cries but It is much cheaper and easier to primp up the next Britney Spears du jour and 10 clones. And let us not forget the 10 boy band acts. Cheaper to produce and monetize. There are no albums or any depth think Pink Floyd or Quadrophenia, Queen, early David Bowie, there is only 3 min pre packaged crap. Watch American Idol to see the shallowness of the industry. Stairway to Heaven, The Wall did these bands care about the Journey song format? Radio is always years behind. The stations would not play Black Sabbath, Judas Priest or Iron Maiden, had no problem playing Nirvana? And had no problem playing disco vs. real talent.
Is Rock dead? NO there is always room for GOOD rock, And good music in general. Stairway to Heaven, Bohemian Rhapsody, Highway Star, and the modern day equivalents but much less room for the 47th Joan Jett wannabe for - I Love Rock and Roll.
Additionally, just like Mick Jagger said I wont be playing Satisfaction in my 40's, I myself never thought that I would get a chance to see Guns N Roses, Eagles, Stones, again or many other bands that now have longevity because of the Internet and they can continue to tour long past their prime. This is a double edge sword. They are doing the same set as last year and Im not listening to anything new. After 40 years it can get pretty stale. Could be a great band that was 100% influenced by your favorite band and we will never hear them. The radio market here plays less than 100 songs. Even satellite radio plays the 1 top hit from the artist, no depth.
In terms of Rock being dead, there is tons of money being spent on concerts. Name the big name act and you fill Wrigley field x 50 states. So economically that is far from dead. But without something fresh, somewhat in genre as the opener it is stagnation. There is a hole in new rock acts and that is because there is $0 being spent on finding the next Halestorm, Shinedown, Kings of Leon, etc.
Again I guess it depends on what aspects you want to look at. Seeing the Stones for the 40th time is great but does nothing for pipeline development.
Comments?
Best,
Chris Florio
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The rise of greed in our culture killed rock and roll. Rock used to be a great unifier & brought together people across socio-economic lines. Until greed.
Probably started with MTV.., at first it was about musicians making music ... eventually it became about corporations making music and putting an artist's name on it. Some of us still have fond memories of MTV - when the music was made for adults and wasn't just being sweatshoped for kids. When VJs actually listened to the music they were playing and weren't creepy dudes hanging out with pubescent girls.
Then Napster hit and college kids decided they deserved everything ever recorded because their parents bought them a computer.
So what did labels do? They stopped supporting Rock and went to what sold... rap, urban, country... music which was being bought by those who didn't have access to broadband.
Music became predominantly about a solo artist, and not about bands. Great for labels, as it is so much cheaper to hire 1 person, rather than 4,5,or 6. Cheaper to travel them to shows. And that solo artist now has less material to draw from, so is more likely to draw from the labels A&R department.
Add to that the overprocessing, hyper-quantization and loudness wars of mainstream rock - which left us with music which might sound ok on a cellphone but which no one WANTS to listen to more than once or twice...
Yeah there still is some great rock out the (someone mentioned Widespread Panic, Phish, etc.)... but those aren't bands which have to over-inflate their value/personalities by resorting to "fake-news" on twitter. Ironically it's these bands which are the most social and accessible - Mike from Phish commonly rides around in a golf cart before shows meeting with fans in the parking lot.
Kids who don't know any better and want to fit in look to what is popular - and leave it to gangstas to play up the 'i have everything' facade. It's actually an 'i'm better than thou' image they are selling. An ideal which perpetuates anger, hatred, guns, violence... Shit, apparently the nightclub in Arkansas shooting advertised with guns on promotional materials!?!
Eventually rap moguls moved to the top of record companies... but they really don't give a shit about music, just money. They are bought and sold for numbers on a paper, treat fans like shit - overcharging them for anything they can put their name on... perfumes, sweat-shopped clothing, headphones... And of course they are too greedy to actually support artists... it's all buyouts, no long-term career paths.
What will save rock is truth-in-advertising.... denoting who wrote the song, how it was recorded, whether the vocals were cut/pasted/pitched... Now as a recording engineer, I'm all about multiple takes and finding a version which precisely matches the song (good books have all been edited, right?). But when the artist can't sing a complete line, doesn't even know the words to 'their' song... well a line has to be drawn...
...and to all the moguls who read this and think i'm an idiot... let's put into simplistic terms: if you are running a dozen different companies how much time is devoted to each one? now which one gets most of your attention? gets you most excited? is it the one with the best music? or the one which pays you best?
-dan yotz
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Hey Bob,
This is so true... Lillywhite and Caren make great points!
And there are a few other key, related reasons why music overall has been suffering... and they're hidden in plain sight.
My generation lucked out... I was 20 in 1995.
We are the ones behind so many of the scenes today producing and cowriting...
We were young enough to "get" the digital thing and old enough to use it a tad more wisely (in some cases).... also we had limitations we were in our formative years, so the best of us actually blistered our hands learning our craft... because there was no other way.
We straddled the digital home studio recording revolution... we had four track cassette recorders as kids (so we had to really learn to play!), and then as young adults we had the earliest digital recorders (in my case it was ADATs then a Roland 880, then the 1680, then Protools), so we could then edit our work (work which was fairly skillful and not full of corner-cutting).
We saw both sides (analog and digital) and appreciated the differences. We were fortunate.... like a kid with good strict parents... or good genetics... or who happened to NOT grow up in extreme poverty. Our specific limitations and our head-starts combined to create a healthier environment to grow. We came up in a historical and technological sweetspot.
The problem is, yep: humans find the most direct path to progress... but in the case of much of today's artist's music, the humans leading the charge are kids: Not known to always do what's best for themselves!:) What with their undeveloped frontal lobes and all... but they do have youth on their side. . .
Even still, as a whole, we are horrible at doing what's best for ourselves. We're often gluttonous. We engorge ourselves on technological advancements of any kind, at our peril. Often we gain something and lose something else at the same time. We gain access to the world through our smart phones and ignore the person sitting across from us...
With modern recording there are a couple key problems. Some of this is what drove me to write my book... check it out:
1) Perfection is so easy to achieve that we don't think about whether we SHOULD achieve it. The humanity is found in the flaws.
Imagine for a second if "plastic surgery" was as easy and painless as digital editing is... everyone would have the same lips, the same ass, the same nose... we'd all look like whatever today's definition/version of beauty is... it would homogenize us... and this is what happened to music.
2) We used to have to--for example--know how to play, tune AND record a drum to get the sound we wanted. Inside each of those processes are important artistic choices that are informed by our intent...
But, when we just grab a drum sample off a library (or out of a plugin) we didn't go through that process... so it's infinitely easier to be sloppy and less artistic with our choices... often choosing rather to have the trendy snare sound instead of the best one we could actually achieve ourselves through wrestling with a live instrument and the quirks of the player and our own room etc etc.... this is where innovation comes from! This is how we get indiosyncratic recordings!
And I have to call out these Big Name Mixing Engineers who perpetuate this problem by selling samples and making over-simplified plugins that keep the young generation ignorant about the nuances and art of engineering. They do this under the guise that it's "for the songwriter who wants fast results"... yea, maybe partially, but it's really about GREED. They slap their name on something and sell out. Now, many of them also are doing YouTube "how-to" videos.. which is great... but it seems like a marketing move to sell such plugins... so I'm not sure how philanthropic it all is.... hmm! We all gotta make a living though. I get it.
But, a message to CLA and JJP and all the others: If you wanna make a preset-based short-cut plugin, please, add a "LEARN" button that pulls back the curtain and allows people to see the signal chains and specific settings that are in place behind the preset. This would be a big step in the right direction.
Same goes for samples, a "LEARN" button... that tells the story behind the recording of the sample. This would probably be less helpful, because kids usually can't afford the gear it takes to get a great drum sound... but still.
That said....
Some of these issues are beginning to work themselves out..... because when everyone has the same short-cut tools, we will all end up getting these homogenized results.... so to stand out you gotta be different... and there's evidence that "different" is, well, doing things old school... and that explains why rich, organic sounding productions, with imperfectly-tasteful performances sound fresh all of a sudden.
We as human beings are changing FAR slower than technology is... we still respond deeply to what is saturated with humanity and authenticity.
So, just like with the food industry, we will likely see somewhat of a return to what is healthy. Fewer corn syrup songs and more Whole Foods.
;)Adam Watts
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